What's the Spartacist League up to these days?

[PTK]

Thinking about it now I remember three people who had cars, two women and a man. Also there was a supporter, the partner of a very strange American woman, who had a car. I have realised, in trying to think about those times, how vague my memories are. It was a long time ago and also very unpleasant. Often I can recall scenes, and the feelings attached to the scene, but I have no idea what is being said.



No idea who this is. When I was an ex-member I remember talking to a supporter who had been ferried to an SWP meeting in a van along with a few members. She said the Sparts in the van were the tensest people she'd ever encountered. This would have been 1987 or later though, some time after Tompkins was supposedly a member.

One thing I do remember about the man with the van whom I mentioned is that he owned a digital watch (which were not common in those days) on which you had to press a button to see the time. As he joked, it would not be much use to someone with one arm. I mention this as an example of the oddities of memory.

The American women whom you mention was a decent person, I think, who had qualms about some of the things that went on.

It would be interesting to know which ex-members of the Spartacist League remained interested in politics.

 

[Carl Steele]

sorry, posted too soon, can't delete posts.

 

[PTK]

sorry, posted too soon, can't delete posts.

Yes, I just had a case of premature posting on another thread.

 

[Carl Steele]

One thing I do remember about the man with the van whom I mentioned is that he owned a digital watch (which were not common in those days) on which you had to press a button to see the time. As he joked, it would not be much use to someone with one arm. I mention this as an example of the oddities of memory.

I don't remember this guy, but maybe I never did anything with him. He does seem like a candidate to be Tompkins, drove a van and was peripheral to the organisation. The idea that someone attended a meeting who shouldn't have rings a distant bell.

The American women whom you mention was a decent person, I think, who had qualms about some of the things that went on.

She wasn't personally nasty, but she must have had qualm after qualm after qualm because she was a member for at least 10 years. I was still getting calls from her long after I left. I don't recall her ever objecting to anything. Not sure how decent that makes her.

It would be interesting to know which ex-members of the Spartacist League remained interested in politics.

A lot remained interested in politics only passively.

 

[PTK]

I don't remember this guy, but maybe I never did anything with him. He does seem like a candidate to be Tompkins, drove a van and was peripheral to the organisation. The idea that someone attended a meeting who shouldn't have rings a distant bell.


She wasn't personally nasty, but she must have had qualm after qualm after qualm because she was a member for at least 10 years. I was still getting calls from her long after I left. I don't recall her ever objecting to anything. Not sure how decent that makes her.


A lot remained interested in politics only passively.

I wonder about the psychology of all this.

 

[Carl Steele]

I wonder about the psychology of all this.

The bottom line is that for the Sparts politics was a set of abstract ideas. A purist ideology. (Geoff White made this point in his 1968 resignation letter). There was no practical application, no way to test the validity or otherwise of the ideology, so it could never be falsified. How do you know if "Defend the Soviet Union" is correct? It's just a vague slogan. How do you know if the proletarian revolution is the answer to every problem, everywhere in the world? The Sparts were a perverse literary society which used politics for internal control, not to affect the world.

Why would anyone join this organisation, let alone stay in it for years? It's an issue too complex for this forum, but the intense, angry quality of the place was a major attraction for many, including the "decent" American woman.

 

[PTK]

I remember going to the office of the WSL to buy a number of copies of this document. The SL liked to read the documents produced by their opponents on the left. I don't remember reading it.

The bit about the proposed selling off of the car factories is very good. It shows up the politics of the Sparts then as, er, rather [I cannot think of the correct expression].

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Carl Steele]

I wonder about the psychology of all this.

This is a brief intro to the EnlightenNext cult:




There are real parallels between EnlightenNext and the Sparts - particularly the grandiosity of the apparent goals and the abusive behaviour - there is a lot more detail here: WHAT enlightenment??! and here: American Guru

There are also differences - the leader Andrew Cohen effectively dissolved his own cult.

*edit * And I should underline that Cohen dissolved the cult because his followers rebelled - the Sparts membership were much more passive, they had no fight in them.

 

[PTK]

This is a brief intro to the EnlightenNext cult:




There are real parallels between EnlightenNext and the Sparts - particularly the grandiosity of the apparent goals and the abusive behaviour - there is a lot more detail here: WHAT enlightenment??! and here: American Guru

There are also differences - the leader Andrew Cohen effectively dissolved his own cult.

*edit * And I should underline that Cohen dissolved the cult because his followers rebelled - the Sparts membership were much more passive, they had no fight in them.

Thanks I will have a look at that. In the meantime, this is an account of a cultish US Marxist group. The members rebelled and expelled the guru when she was away.

Democratic Workers Party - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Carl Steele]

From Delusions of Grandeur

The notion of a vanguard revolutionary party inherently predisposes its adherents to view themselves as the pivot on which world history is destined to turn. Revolution is seen as the only route by which humanity can avoid annihilation, but revolution is only possible if a mass party is built around a group of “cadres”: that is, devotees of the party with a particularly deep insight into its ideology. Members become possessed by a tremendous sense of urgency and a powerful conviction of their group’s unique role in bringing about the transformation of the world. They develop delusions of historical grandeur. Religious zealotry soon follows.

Describes the Sparts exactly. (Tim Wohlforth, one time collaborator with Jim Robertson, is the co-author of the book from which this is quoted).

The devotees of EnlightenNext differed from the Sparts only in that they believed themselves to be the pivot on which the development of the universe turned.

 

[RebelSpart]

As a former Spart from the early 1970s, I wonder whatever happened to people like George Foster, George Crawford, Liz Gordon and Alice L. (Carl L.'s widow). (All names mentioned are are party names). Does anyone have uptodate information?

 

[RebelSpart]

From Delusions of Grandeur

The notion of a vanguard revolutionary party inherently predisposes its adherents to view themselves as the pivot on which world history is destined to turn. Revolution is seen as the only route by which humanity can avoid annihilation, but revolution is only possible if a mass party is built around a group of “cadres”: that is, devotees of the party with a particularly deep insight into its ideology. Members become possessed by a tremendous sense of urgency and a powerful conviction of their group’s unique role in bringing about the transformation of the world. They develop delusions of historical grandeur. Religious zealotry soon follows.

Describes the Sparts exactly. (Tim Wohlforth, one time collaborator with Jim Robertson, is the co-author of the book from which this is quoted).

The devotees of EnlightenNext differed from the Sparts only in that they believed themselves to be the pivot on which the development of the universe turned.

I met Tim Wohlforth around 1971/72 and the description he attributes to Robertson also fits him to a tee!

 

[kenny g]

As a former Spart from the early 1970s, I wonder whatever happened to people like George Foster, George Crawford, Liz Gordon and Alice L. (Carl L.'s widow). (All names mentioned are are party names). Does anyone have uptodate information?

Who needs to know?

 

[kebabking]

Who needs to know?

You don't actually believe that the various state organs who find themselves burdened with the baleful task of keeping tabs on these mortal threats to the capitalist pig-dogs/bunch of certifiable nut-cases are in the dark as to what they are up to, do you?

 

[kenny g]

You don't actually believe that the various state organs who find themselves burdened with the baleful task of keeping tabs on these mortal threats to the capitalist pig-dogs/bunch of certifiable nut-cases are in the dark as to what they are up to, do you?

May well be due to their use of "party names".

 

[kenny g]

Quite often security services will set training tasks for new recruits such as " identify the whereabouts of all present and former members of group X". This would fit that MO.

 

[kenny g]

Whatever my feelings about SL I am quite happy to not in effect DOX former or current members of the org.

 

[Carl Steele]

As a former Spart from the early 1970s, I wonder whatever happened to people like George Foster, George Crawford, Liz Gordon and Alice L. (Carl L.'s widow). (All names mentioned are are party names). Does anyone have uptodate information?

George Foster was one of the speakers at the memorial meeting for Robertson, according to WV. As for the rest I have no idea. Why do you ask?

I met Tim Wohlforth around 1971/72 and the description he attributes to Robertson also fits him to a tee!

Wohlforth doesn't mention Robertson in the piece you quote.

 

[Carl Steele]

Quite often security services will set training tasks for new recruits such as " identify the whereabouts of all present and former members of group X". This would fit that MO.

If that's what this is, we can all sleep soundly at night. Three of the four names RebelSpart uses can be found in the editorial box of WV. The other is the wife of a physicist-spart who died in 2011 and is quite well known in academic circles - the wife is mentioned in the WV obituary, and can easily be found with Google.

The reference to Wohlforth seems confused, Wohlforth split with Robertson in 1964 or thereabouts.

 

[RebelSpart]

Who needs to know?

What difference does it make? I actually knew the individuals mentioned in these posts and I am curious as to what happened to them. Even if I were a cop and there were a cop tapping into these threads, it would be of zero importance.
I heard that the SL has essentially shut down operations, but a former comrade (just recently deceased), says they are having problems but are still operational. At 25, I had just had enough (actually had enough way before that) and I came across GB Shaw's famous quote, which I paraphrase as, "if you were not marxist at 19, you have no soul; if you remain a marxist at 31, you have no brains!"

 

[Idris2002]

I came across GB Shaw's famous quote, which I paraphrase as, "if you were not marxist at 19, you have no soul; if you remain a marxist at 31, you have no brains!"

A quote also attributed to Churchill, and a load of old bollocks in both cases.

 

[RebelSpart]

If that's what this is, we can all sleep soundly at night. Three of the four names RebelSpart uses can be found in the editorial box of WV. The other is the wife of a physicist-spart who died in 2011 and is quite well known in academic circles - the wife is mentioned in the WV obituary, and can easily be found with Google.

The reference to Wohlforth seems confused, Wohlforth split with Robertson in 1964 or thereabouts.

So you guys think I'm a cop and, of course, you are sure about your fellow posters' true identities? My comment concerning Wohforth was in response to someone citing him regarding Robertson. Not confused! Whatever, I am no fan of the Sparts. I left them early, I only wish I left them much earlier. They had some brillant people who really believed in what they were doing. I cannot claim the same level of overall intelligence, but I knew I hated cliques, always have, always will. I also hate talking with people who have no firsthand experience in a subject about which they can pontificate endlessly!

 

[hitmouse]

I also hate talking with people who have no firsthand experience in a subject about which they can pontificate endlessly!

Welcome to urban!

 

[Idris2002]

Welcome to urban!

You'll never leave

 

[Carl Steele]

So you guys think I'm a cop and, of course, you are sure about your fellow posters' true identities? My comment concerning Wohforth was in response to someone citing him regarding Robertson. Not confused! Whatever, I am no fan of the Sparts. I left them early, I only wish I left them much earlier. They had some brillant people who really believed in what they were doing. I cannot claim the same level of overall intelligence, but I knew I hated cliques, always have, always will. I also hate talking with people who have no firsthand experience in a subject about which they can pontificate endlessly!

FWIW I don't think you are a cop. My response was ironic. If you want to see what's happened to the Sparts check out this thread and the Sparts website and maybe the Internationalist Group articles. They are barely functional, probably squabbling over the spoils

 

[Serge Forward]

which I paraphrase as, "if you were not marxist at 19, you have no soul; if you remain a marxist at 31, you have no brains!"

So you became an anarchist then?

 

[RebelSpart]

FWIW I don't think you are a cop. My response was ironic. If you want to see what's happened to the Sparts check out this thread and the Sparts website and maybe the Internationalist Group articles. They are barely functional, probably squabbling over the spoils

I already checked out their website and found nothing new. My impression (perhaps false) is that they haven't published Workers Vanguard in over a year.
What renewed my interest in them is the death of a former comrade in L.A. a week or so ago (just heard yesterday). Despite our huge political differences, I am saddened to learn of his death. I also learned of Carl Lichtenstein's death (yes, I use his real name; like other public figures, the SL didn't both with pseudos). He and his wife, Alice, were adorable and good friends ... until I broke with the SL.

 

[RebelSpart]

So you became an anarchist then?

No, I became a fervent I-don't-knowist and started from scratch!

 

[RebelSpart]

A quote also attributed to Churchill, and a load of old bollocks in both cases.

Yes, indeedee, don't know about Churchill, although he was not above absconding with someone else's ideas. But your point is well taken; the quote is part of a long string of similar quotes going back centuries (minus the marxism bit).

 

[Carl Steele]

already checked out their website and found nothing new. My impression (perhaps false) is that they haven't published Workers Vanguard in over a year.

They haven't published WV since May 2020. The Americans have written only 2 leaflets since then (and called them supplements). They were completely silent throughout the BLM protests. They've translated the leaflets into several languages to make it appear as though they are a functioning organisation. Apart from that the Greeks have produced a couple of leaflets as have the Canadians. In the last 5 or 6 months there's been nothing at all. Looks like it's over, but they still have to sort out who gets the cash from the properties - New York office building and Robertson's Bay Area retirement home.