What's the Spartacist League up to these days?

[kebabking]

Something I've never really thought about before, but the Sparts, and a couple of the other similar type orgs have a recurring theme of people from the org in one country moving to another to take up leadership/administrative/activist/enforcer positions in the org in another country - how did they do that with such apparent ease?

I remember my parents thinking about emigrating to the US in the mid-80's - my dad had been offered a well paid engineering job in California, but there was still a mountain of paperwork to be done, an approval process to be gone through. It was nothing like as simple as booking a flight, turning up at immigration and saying 'i'm here for the good life baby' before being happily waved through....

 

[Idris2002]

Something I've never really thought about before, but the Sparts, and a couple of the other similar type orgs have a recurring theme of people from the org in one country moving to another to take up leadership/administrative/activist/enforcer positions in the org in another country - how did they do that with such apparent ease?

I remember my parents thinking about emigrating to the US in the mid-80's - my dad had been offered a well paid engineering job in California, but there was still a mountain of paperwork to be done, an approval process to be gone through. It was nothing like as simple as booking a flight, turning up at immigration and saying 'i'm here for the good life baby' before being happily waved through....

If they were American, they might have got in via the "grandmother" rule - but mind you, my nieces, who are Irish like their mum, but were born outside Ireland, also like their mum, had a major faff getting Irish passports.

 

[Carl Steele]

Who was Logan? Was that his first or last name? I vaguely remember a guy from New Zealand (who I think was called Logan but am not sure). The New Zealander was also an expert in aikido. I didn't realize Judith was a part of any regime in the UK, but that makes sense since she is now well established there. Although involved in good economic development work, she doesn't seem to care that boyfriend Doug Hainline had become a neocon and virulent anti-communist.

Bill Logan was expelled from the Sparts in 1979 for using his leadership position to indulge his sociopathic personality (my characterisation). Most egregiously, in the early 1970s in Australia, he tried (together with his companion Adaire Hannah) to force a woman member, Vicky, to have an abortion, telling her not to take medication that had been prescribed to prevent a miscarriage. When Vicky went ahead and had her baby, they tried to force her to give up the newborn child, rendering her suicidal. She was hospitalised following the suicide attempt. The Vicky story was part of a pattern of gross interference in the personal lives of the membership.

The basic facts of the Vicky story are not, as far as I know, disputed by anyone, not even Logan apologists like Tom Riley's Bolshevik Tendency. The only argument concerns how much the US leadership knew of Logan's atrocities while they were taking place. There is good reason to believe Robertson and his cronies knew all about what was happening in Australia and used the events to get rid of Logan when he was perceived to be a threat to their leadership.

At the time of his trial and expulsion Logan was the leader of the Spartacist League of Britain, and Doug and Judith were two of his lieutenants. I wasn't a member at the time so I can't tell you about the internal life under the Logan regime. But Logan's downfall led to Doug and Judith's demotion and eventual exit from the organisation. They did though maintain their personal friendship with Logan, and as I recall put his behaviour in Australia down to "inexperience".

 

[DaveCinzano]

I ran into Martin Perlich in Venice Beach around 1979, the radio announcer from Cleveland who, after quitting the SL relaunched what turned out to be a very successful career. He had lied to the SL leadership, claiming, after I resigned, that I was selling marijuana.

Max Perlich's dad?!

 

[petee]

If they were American, they might have got in via the "grandmother" rule - but mind you, my nieces, who are Irish like their mum, but were born outside Ireland, also like their mum, had a major faff getting Irish passports.

the story here was that they'd just hand you one, and i do know yanks who got it that way (after showing documentation i mean, like my parents' birth certificates). but when i went to the consulate i was swept aside, though i meet all the qualifications. i never tried again (i figured i didn't need it except to get into a few countries barred to yanks but i have no desire to visit anyway).

 

[RebelSpart]

Sorry, but I don't know.

 

[kenny g]

Max Perlich's dad?!

View attachment 293359

Indeed he is: Martin Perlich - Wikipedia (at the end of the overly long wiki page)

 

[Dom Traynor]

Hey I live in NZ and have mutual friends with an old far left type called Bill Logan, I wonder if it's the same one? He looks to be in his late sixties.

Edited to add: oh wait it's definitely him his FB profile links to bolshevik.org

Looks like he became a drug counsellor and wedding celebrant. He's spending his online time campaigning against trans stuff by the looks of it.

 

[nogojones]

Max Perlich's dad?!

View attachment 293359

Quite possibly

Cleveland, Old man a radio presenter.

 

[nogojones]

Indeed he is: Martin Perlich - Wikipedia (at the end of the overly long wiki page)

But that says nothing about his service to the world revolution!

 

[Carl Steele]

Hey I live in NZ and have mutual friends with an old far left type called Bill Logan, I wonder if it's the same one? He looks to be in his late sixties.

Edited to add: oh wait it's definitely him his FB profile links to bolshevik.org

Looks like he became a drug counsellor and wedding celebrant. He's spending his online time campaigning against trans stuff by the looks of it.

Sounds like the man. You can find him on twitter with a real photo. I'm sure he's really plausible. Have a great day.

 

[RebelSpart]

Sounds like the man. You can find him on twitter with a real photo. I'm sure he's really plausible. Have a great day.

I just found his FB page, too. He looks very, very different from the handsome and soft-spoken young man I met in the early 1970s.

 

[Carl Steele]

I just found his FB page, too. He looks very, very different from the handsome and soft-spoken young man I met in the early 1970s.

The saddest thing is he's still playing the Bolshevik Bill game, acting out his fantasies in an empty auditorium.

 

[kenny g]

How many active SLers are left in the UK do we reckon?

 

[Dom Traynor]

The saddest thing is he's still playing the Bolshevik Bill game, acting out his fantasies in an empty auditorium.

Actually (and not defending him because he seems annoying at the least) it's not quite empty because the far left is a relatively small pond here and even a small fish can interact with a lot of people. However the main reason he has any traction will be his old union mates from 30+ years ago most of whom are retired now, plus his drug reform and counseling work.

So less an empty auditorium and more a small function room in a community hall with a smattering of retired folks.

 

[Carl Steele]

So less an empty auditorium and more a small function room in a community hall with a smattering of retired folks.

Yes, that's probably a better image.

 

[Carl Steele]

and not defending him because he seems annoying at the least

As far as I am aware he's never expressed regret for what he did. He's made some excuses, and there is documentation of abusive behaviour in his Permanent Revolution Group in the 90s and 2000s. Best give him a very wide berth.

 

[JeffTipps4]

Interesting discussion overall. Going back to the SL / ICL, what is actually going on? I thought that with their repudiation of their previous position on lockdown earlier this year it would restart them, but apparently not.

Having attended many demos in Britain in the last 20 years they were a regular fixture, and had about 15 people on some of them but they noticeably shrank in the last few years.

 

[RebelSpart]

I think the perspective on when the revolution was coming shifted. I'm fairly sure there was a period in the 1970s when the Sparts thought the collapse of US capitalism was imminent and greatness would be thrust upon them. In the 1980s they talked incessantly about the imminence of WWIII. And they did see themselves as the direct (and only) descendants of Lenin. So sometimes they lamented not having much time to build the revolutionary party and at other times they postured as merely the latest link in the chain of revolutionary continuity.



I'm trying to understand how you reconcile the above statement with this ...



Why do you think the reasons the "intellectual luminaries" joined the SL were more rational than your own? I think anyone who made a clear-eyed assessment of the Sparts and Robertson wouldn't have touched them with the proverbial ten foot pole. Why would anyone believe that a ranting and raving alcoholic could play a pivotal role in bringing about socialism?

And btw I was in the Sparts in the 1980s. I left in 1986.

I am curious about your opinions and knowledge of Judith. I assumed that she had left the SL in the early 1980s but your comments lead me to think she was still there when you left in 1986. Is that right? My understanding is also that her and Doug's situation within the org worsened considerably after they (she) concluded that we would not see a socialist revolution in our lifetime.

 

[Carl Steele]

Judith left in 1981 - you can read her resignation letter here (page 6). Her and Doug's situation worsened when Logan was purged because they had been part of his leadership in Britain. When I joined in early 1981 Doug was a marginal member, floating around in the ranks, Judith was on the Spartacist Britain editorial board and a CC member (alt) but obviously an outsider. I maintained contact with them, and met up with them a few times after I left. Judith had a spell in the Labour Party and worked for a while in the Soviet Union, she was involved in Gorbachev's perestroika reforms. You may be interested in reading a transcript of her remarks to the Platypus Society in 2018.

Edit: also you may be interested to see Judith speaking in 2013 in an intelligence squared debate: Karl Marx was right Judith's first contribution is at the 47 minute mark.

 

[RebelSpart]

Judith left in 1981 - you can read her resignation letter here (page 6). Her and Doug's situation worsened when Logan was purged because they had been part of his leadership in Britain. When I joined in early 1981 Doug was a marginal member, floating around in the ranks, Judith was on the Spartacist Britain editorial board and a CC member (alt) but obviously an outsider. I maintained contact with them, and met up with them a few times after I left. Judith had a spell in the Labour Party and worked for a while in the Soviet Union, she was involved in Gorbachev's perestroika reforms. You may be interested in reading a transcript of her remarks to the Platypus Society in 2018.

Edit: also you may be interested to see Judith speaking in 2013 in an intelligence squared debate: Karl Marx was right Judith's first contribution is at the 47 minute mark.

Thank you, Carl, for the links, which I find very instructive. Judith's abridged resignation letter sums up my thoughts exactly when I resiged in 1975, except I refused to give them another penny. I had not renounced socialism, much less advocated for capitalism; I just did not see any way forward and that is what I believe today. As Judith said in the Platypus Society forum, if the battle is between barbarism and socialism, I fear that barbarism is likely to win. I also liked her comments on her way back to Moscow where a friend lamented that, if socialism were only "15% less efficient than capitalism", she would support socialism. Unfortunately, the experience with the self-proclaimed socialist states suggests that socialism is hardly efficient, much less democratic or representative.
Às for Robertson's alcoholism, it doesn't matter. During the American Civil War, Mr. Lincoln, recalling General Ulyssus S. Grant's successes, said that if he could find out what brand of whiskey Grant drank, he would send a barrel of it to all the other commanders.”
Robertson's problem was that he was more of a faction fighter than a party builder. When I was in the SL, at least, he lived a modest life in a small NYC flat. As Judith pointed out, she saw no way forward, which means she saw no way forward with any of the other groups or individuals fighting for socialism, which may be why they have all collapsed!

 

[Carl Steele]

Robertson's problem was that he was more of a faction fighter than a party builder.

Judith makes a similar observation: "What destroyed the Spartacist League were the purges and the splits and so on."

To be perfectly honest, I think this completely misses the point. The project of the Spartacist League wasn't what it claimed to be, The purges and the splits were a consequence of what it actually was - an attempt to build a purist sect around a mediocre personality.

Judith also says: "The worst part of giving up a belief in the imminence of revolution was losing the sense that you had a reason to get up in the morning." Well, not for me. When I finally broke all connection to a belief in Robertson's fictional revolution, I felt liberated.

 

[Dom Traynor]

As far as I am aware he's never expressed regret for what he did. He's made some excuses, and there is documentation of abusive behaviour in his Permanent Revolution Group in the 90s and 2000s. Best give him a very wide berth.

Thanks. I have no intention of going anywhere near him.

 

[RebelSpart]

Judith makes a similar observation: "What destroyed the Spartacist League were the purges and the splits and so on."

To be perfectly honest, I think this completely misses the point. The project of the Spartacist League wasn't what it claimed to be, The purges and the splits were a consequence of what it actually was - an attempt to build a purist sect around a mediocre personality.

Judith also says: "The worst part of giving up a belief in the imminence of revolution was losing the sense that you had a reason to get up in the morning." Well, not for me. When I finally broke all connection to a belief in Robertson's fictional revolution, I felt liberated.

OK, Carl, I got it, the SL was a purist sect, which is true. The clique around Robertson condemned people for relying on personal attacks to advance their agenda but they did the same thing with me and seem to have done with Doug. I see no problem whatsoever talking with someone who is considering voting for a far right party. WTF! France is chockful of former CP voters and militants who now vote National Front, Eric Zemmour or even radical Islam (as one major CC member did). The whole problem with a hysterical middle class left posing as defender of the working class and minorities is that their language give a huge opening to the extreme right!
Whatever, all that is beside the point (for me). Just two questions: (1) What did you do after you quit the SL in the UK?, and; what concrete things did Logan and Judith Shapiro that violated revolutionary principles during your time as member?

 

[Carl Steele]

(1) What did you do after you quit the SL in the UK?, and; what concrete things did Logan and Judith Shapiro that violated revolutionary principles during your time as member?

After I quit the SL, I hung around the SL for a while (with more or less enthusiasm), completely broke from them in 1990 following the suicide of Noah Wolkenstein. My membership did not overlap with Logan, he was gone a year or two before I joined. I don't know what you mean by "revolutionary principles" (the SL is not, was not, and never has been a "revolutionary" organisation). During the few months in which my membership overlapped with Judith's I don't recall her doing anything I found objectionable.

 

[RebelSpart]

After I quit the SL, I hung around the SL for a while (with more or less enthusiasm), completely broke from them in 1990 following the suicide of Noah Wolkenstein. My membership did not overlap with Logan, he was gone a year or two before I joined. I don't know what you mean by "revolutionary principles" (the SL is not, was not, and never has been a "revolutionary" organisation). During the few months in which my membership overlapped with Judith's I don't recall her doing anything I found objectionable.

So you had no firsthand knowledge of Logan's missdeeds, yet you speak of Logan's "regime" and behaviour that the SL leadership knew about all along. I am just trying to understand what truly happened under his leadership. And if Judith supported the Logan "regime" and its misdeed, how can you then say she did nothing "objectionable"?
Again, please don't take my questions as a rebuke. I really want to understand what happened to the SL and its leadership in the 1980s and 1990s and I have yet to see anything concrete expressed on these threads.

 

[Carl Steele]

So you had no firsthand knowledge of Logan's missdeeds, yet you speak of Logan's "regime" and behaviour that the SL leadership knew about all along. I am just trying to understand what truly happened under his leadership. And if Judith supported the Logan "regime" and its misdeed, how can you then say she did nothing "objectionable"?
Again, please don't take my questions as a rebuke. I really want to understand what happened to the SL and its leadership in the 1980s and 1990s and I have yet to see anything concrete expressed on these threads.

This is getting quite frustrating. I explained earlier how Logan was thrown out of the Sparts for what he did while leader of the Spartacist League of Australia and New Zealand, prior to going to Britain. I gave a brief summary of the worst of his crimes - the attempt to stop Vicky having and keeping her baby in 1972/3. This is well documented if you take the trouble to look, which is why I focused on it. There is also documentation of Logan's abusive behaviour in his very own Permanent Revolution Group in the 1990s and 2000s, again not difficult to find. Judith was a member of Logan's regime in Britain, and she remained Logan's friend after he was purged. I observed that she was prepared to put Logan's behaviour in Australia down to "inexperience" - she said this in conversation on at least one occasion - which I find deeply troubling. If that's not "concrete" enough for you I don't know what I can do.

If you want to understand the SL in the 1980s and 1990s you should do a little investigation of your own, or at least take the trouble to read this thread with care.

Edit: the post I am referring to is on this page

 

[RebelSpart]

Yes, Logan was accused and convicted by the SL leadership of abusing a woman into getting an abortion, but since when is an accusation by the SL leadership considered to be synonymous with truth? Hell, I was falsely accused od drug dealing. It's as if Robertson was trying to imitate the methods of Stalin's show trials.
I knew Shapiro with whom I continue to talk (occasionally). Maybe she excused Logan's behavior too easily but the difference between you and her is that she actually knew him for many, many years. I understand your "frustration" but you are not backing up very allegations against both Logan and Shapiro. I trust firsthand knowledge over hearsay any day.
I have no dog in this fight, because I gave up on socialism nearly a half century ago, but the opinions issued on the anti-SL, ostensibly trotskyist blogosphere are often tinted by hysteria and lots and lots of personal attacks.

 

[Carl Steele]

Yes, Logan was accused and convicted by the SL leadership of abusing a woman into getting an abortion, but since when is an accusation by the SL leadership considered to be synonymous with truth? Hell, I was falsely accused od drug dealing. It's as if Robertson was trying to imitate the methods of Stalin's show trials.
I knew Shapiro with whom I continue to talk (occasionally). Maybe she excused Logan's behavior too easily but the difference between you and her is that she actually knew him for many, many years. I understand your "frustration" but you are not backing up very allegations against both Logan and Shapiro. I trust firsthand knowledge over hearsay any day.
I have no dog in this fight, because I gave up on socialism nearly a half century ago, but the opinions issued on the anti-SL, ostensibly trotskyist blogosphere are often tinted by hysteria and lots and lots of personal attacks.

Even Tom Riley's Bolshevik Tendency (of which Logan was a member for nearly 30 years) accept that Vicky was put under pressure not to take medication which could prevent a miscarriage. Had you done any serious investigating yourself, with your eyes open, you would know this.

I was trying to help you out, but whatever, I'm done with this. Have a nice day!

 

[RebelSpart]

I don't deny that Vicky was put under pressure and that Logan was out of line, but I think we need to put these stories in perspective, which is lacking in your statements. Remember, I am only interested in understanding the SL's functioning and the situation of its members and leaders a good 10+ years after I left it. You seem very, very bitter about your SL experience, which I now understand better, given that you spent not just five but 10 years (+/-) in or around the UK SL at a time when the SL was in deep decline.
I don't care about the Bolshevik Tendency or any of the other Spart offshoots, either.
It took me years to overcome my four years in the SL. I broke hard and clean but it hurt big time. But I returned to university, went to France, came back to the States, began a (very unsatisfying) career and then returned to France where I eventually found decent work, love and a home in the country. So I am not bitter. I wonder what have you done with your life since leaving the SL.
My sole and unique aim here is to understand what happened to the SLers after I left it. I don't care about Logan's activities after the SL. I am more interested in your claim that he ran a horrendous "regime" in the UK and that the SL knew about it all along. I do know that the SL leadership took the UK SL very seriously. How can you know such a thing, if you were not there during Logan's time in the org? Sorry, Carl, but so far, I see more bitterness and frustration and very little light coming from you.
Have a nice day, too!
Edit: After reading my post, I think I am bit guilty of vitriol, too. Carl, I appreciate very much the information you have passed on to me/us. I have read everything, especially concerning Judith. All of it is very interesting, including her remarks at the Karl Marx was Right debate. There we see the Judith Shapiro I knew as the political chair of the Los Angeles local, but 20 years older. So have a nice day, and I mean it!