What's the Spartacist League up to these days?

[hitmouse]

I recall a demo being organised n Tottenham (around Winston Silcott, iirr) for the same day as the fa cup final. That wasn’t till 2001 tho, Arsenal v Liverpool. The demo was crap

The FLA once had a demo in Manchester on the same day as Manchester United were playing in the cup final AND the same day as a royal wedding, which seemed like amazingly shit scheduling for a group whose entire base consists of patriotic/nationalist football fans.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Am I wrong, though?

no

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I recall a demo being organised n Tottenham (around Winston Silcott, iirr) for the same day as the fa cup final. That wasn’t till 2001 tho, Arsenal v Liverpool. The demo was crap

there is of course the classic moment in 1919 I think when Scottish militants hatched a plan to seize power...on the same day as a Celtic-Rangers match.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I wasn't around then so I dunno. I'm hoping someone will now cross-check the dates of FA Cup finals against important Spart events, like that time when someone worked out the precise date when Ice Cube had a good day.

Cup Finals always held historically mid-May (after regular season had ended). That the Spart apologist should make such a casual and egregious error shows the fundamental dishonesty of this tendency. And none of them have, or will, even read Marx on Vogt/Serge on state repression (or indeed the Cointelpro papers). Waste of space

 

[Carl Steele]

Cup Finals always held historically mid-May (after regular season had ended). That the Spart apologist should make such a casual and egregious error shows the fundamental dishonesty of this tendency. And none of them have, or will, even read Marx on Vogt/Serge on state repression (or indeed the Cointelpro papers). Waste of space

Really strange, but oddly entertaining. The egregious error is perhaps misremembering a trivial incident that took place 40 years ago?! But how do you know the incident in question didn't occur in mid May on the very day of the FA Cup final. Perhaps the expellee's team were playing in said Cup Final, and this accounts for his aberrant behaviour. Of course maybe it was actually a Sunday and he was watching ITV's Big Match, or maybe it was summer and he was watching the cricket (which even in those far off days was televised live), in which case the error is indeed egregious. And to make matters worse the Spart apologist has never read, nor will he ever read, Marx on Vogt/Serge on state repression.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Really strange, but oddly entertaining. The egregious error is perhaps misremembering a trivial incident that took place 40 years ago?! But how do you know the incident in question didn't occur in mid May on the very day of the FA Cup final. Perhaps the expellee's team were playing in said Cup Final, and this accounts for his aberrant behaviour. Of course maybe it was actually a Sunday and he was watching ITV's Big Match, or maybe it was summer and he was watching the cricket (which even in those far off days was televised live), in which case the error is indeed egregious. And to make matters worse the Spart apologist has never read, nor will he ever read, Marx on Vogt/Serge on state repression.

Says it all really; Spartacists claimed to be Marxists I believe, yet here we have an apologist boasting he will never read anything, even by Karl himself, that might have expanded his comprehension. And now drags in cricket too/changes the day etc. Something straight out of the 'Spartacist School of Falsification' to coin a phrase. I'm done here, but hope to have proved my points adequately to those capable of comprehending them. And I don't think all followers of Trotsky are brain-dead: eg the late IMG did some interesting stuff (Mandel/Blackburn/Ali), and even today the post-Trotskyist Counterfire is often worth listening to. But Spartacists never were, ever, and aren't now...

 

[Carl Steele]

Says it all really; Spartacists claimed to be Marxists I believe, yet here we have an apologist boasting he will never read anything, even by Karl himself, that might have expanded his comprehension. And now drags in cricket too/changes the day etc. Something straight out of the 'Spartacist School of Falsification' to coin a phrase. I'm done here, but hope to have proved my points adequately to those capable of comprehending them. And I don't think all followers of Trotsky are brain-dead: eg the late IMG did some interesting stuff (Mandel/Blackburn/Ali), and even today the post-Trotskyist Counterfire is often worth listening to. But Spartacists never were, ever, and aren't now...

Actually I left the Sparts in 1986. I don't apologise for them. I loathe them. Ironically your reasoning and selective misreading of a few posts is every bit as unhinged as the Sparts at their worst. And fyi, I am neither a Marxist nor a Trotskyist. My interest in the Barry Tompkins saga is purely a matter of personal history.

 

[The39thStep]

Just on the question of football and Trotskyism , my mind went back to Italia 90 and the intervention of the SWPs Central Committee in Harlesden Branch . A very concerned Sheila McGregor phoned me and some other comrades expressing concern about key and experienced members non attendance at some educational meeting which the district had organised failing to take into consideration the World Cup fixtures . I think we were into game 2 or 3 if the group staged . She got a sort of verbal shrug of the shoulders . Cometh the branch meeting and cometh Chris Bamberry who talked passionately about the necessary of routine , commitment to the struggle and pointed out that Scottish comrades had had full attendance , glut of new members and record paper sales .’Why?’ He asked , ‘was this branch different ‘.One new comrade wearing an England shirt ( oblivious to Bamberry’s position partly due to him not being familiar with the great and the good and partly because we’d met for a pre branch drink ) patiently explained that Scotland were going out in the group stage so it didn’t really matter to those comrades but England were still in it . Bamberry wasn’t as impressed as the new comrade thought he might be and immediately denounced the need to ‘Stamp out the Terry Butcher faction’ that was clearly holding back building the party in North West London .

 

[DaveCinzano]

I have not been following the Spycops saga closely. Was not the SDS distinct from the Special Branch? When are we going to learn the truth about SB infiltration?

The SDS was a unit within MPSB. It was set up in 1968 and was initially an autonomous silo reporting directly to the HSB (Head of Special Branch) or to the DAC responsible for SB. It then came under the control of the 'counter subversion'/anti-communist C Squad, and later still the 'specialist' S Squad.

It was formally wound up in 2008, that is well after the creation of NPOIU, which performed a similar function nationally after morphing out of Essex Police's ARNI in the 1990s, and after the 2006 merger of MPSB and Anti-Terrorist Branch (itself the formalisation of an ad hoc squad formed in the 1970s with both MPSB and CID personnel, and permeated from the start with SDS-experienced and adjacent officers) into Counter Terrorism Command.

 

[planetgeli]

Says it all really; Spartacists claimed to be Marxists I believe, yet here we have an apologist boasting he will never read anything, even by Karl himself, that might have expanded his comprehension. And now drags in cricket too/changes the day etc. Something straight out of the 'Spartacist School of Falsification' to coin a phrase. I'm done here, but hope to have proved my points adequately to those capable of comprehending them. ..

Don't go.

This thread is my favourite thing on Urban atm.

 

[Carl Steele]

This thread is my favourite thing on Urban atm.

Do Larry's posts make sense to you? Genuine question.

 

[planetgeli]

Do Larry's posts make sense to you? Genuine question.

I'm used to Larry on here.

To the bit I quoted from him there, my response when I read it was this

Ironically your reasoning and selective misreading of a few posts is every bit as unhinged as the Sparts

It's interesting to hear perspectives from people like yourself who were in SL. What first attracted you to this particular abusive tiny lefty sect? Genuine question, I know you left in 86.

 

[Carl Steele]

It's interesting to hear perspectives from people like yourself who were in SL. What first attracted you to this particular abusive tiny lefty sect? Genuine question, I know you left in 86

I went on a journey through the left and ended up in the Sparts. It had much more to with psychology than politics. In fact I don't think it's terribly useful to try to analyse the Sparts as a political phenomena. They were very much an extension of Jim Robertson's psyche. The abusive, angry environment was somewhat familiar, and therefore attractive. That's the short story, flash fiction I suppose. IMO all of the political analyses of the Sparts (by the IBT and others) are complete bullshit.

 

[Serge Forward]

there is of course the classic moment in 1919 I think when Scottish militants hatched a plan to seize power...on the same day as a Celtic-Rangers match.

Obviously jags supporters.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Actually I left the Sparts in 1986. I don't apologise for them. I loathe them. Ironically your reasoning and selective misreading of a few posts is every bit as unhinged as the Sparts at their worst. And fyi, I am neither a Marxist nor a Trotskyist. My interest in the Barry Tompkins saga is purely a matter of personal history.

reasoning you haven't replied to, but your use of the word "unhinged" instead shows while you have left the Spartacists they haven't left you. By claiming your interest is merely "personal history" you avoid answering political questions. Nice. Though not sure pleading the Fifth works on urban.

To be fair, if you are now as apolitical as you claim to be then I suppose you must find incomprehensible posts about...politics and the ideology of the group you wandered in and out of. That said, your confused denials about police infiltrating the group, though perhaps emotionally-derived, are still political whether you know it or not. The Sparts were a political phenomenon even though you deny it: and a bloody annoying destructive one.

 

[PTK]

It wasn't unusual for non-members to be in the office, particularly after a demonstration. The office had two floors and non-members would be in the larger meeting room. It wasn't a security risk, and there wasn't much to look at anyway. The famous filing system was a joke. The accounts of people moving into other people's apartments, above a restaurant etc. could only come from an established if not senior member. This kind of detail was not recorded.



Tompkin's statement is over 50 pages long and very muddled. He disowns quite a lot of the reports attributed to him, says he couldn't have handed over addresses because his relationship was too distant to get this info (sometimes he implies differently), and often confuses the Sparts and RCP (by which I mean any of RCP/RCT/RMT/RLL; alphabet soup!). I don't think the Sparts had many East London events beyond a few paper sales. The RCP were active in East London with their front organisation ELWAR, which he mentions several times and at one point says the Sparts sent him into it (didn't happen). At times he claims the Sparts and the RCP were close organisations, he even uses the phrase "sister organisations" to describe the relationship (which couldn't be further from the truth).

He's created a narrative from muddled memories - no shame in that, we all do it, but the report is a sham which provides no real information beyond the fact that someone was passing info to the cops.



Now you've jogged my memory. I recall a young guy (younger than the rest of us) who habitually wore a shirt and tie and always seemed to be grinning. I don't remember his name or the expulsion. He took up with an older woman, sometimes they'd sit on the stairs locked together in a passionate embrace. Is this who you're thinking of?

Barry Tompkins was a van driver with a heavy beard apparently.

No, not the bloke in the tie. He was not actually that much younger, but he was very immature. Funnily enough, he had been a contact of the RCP before he joined th Sparts. The bloke I was thinking of was older than that, and I think that he may have been married.

 

[PTK]

Cup Finals always held historically mid-May (after regular season had ended). That the Spart apologist should make such a casual and egregious error shows the fundamental dishonesty of this tendency. And none of them have, or will, even read Marx on Vogt/Serge on state repression (or indeed the Cointelpro papers). Waste of space

Really strange, but oddly entertaining. The egregious error is perhaps misremembering a trivial incident that took place 40 years ago?! But how do you know the incident in question didn't occur in mid May on the very day of the FA Cup final. Perhaps the expellee's team were playing in said Cup Final, and this accounts for his aberrant behaviour. Of course maybe it was actually a Sunday and he was watching ITV's Big Match, or maybe it was summer and he was watching the cricket (which even in those far off days was televised live), in which case the error is indeed egregious. And to make matters worse the Spart apologist has never read, nor will he ever read, Marx on Vogt/Serge on state repression.

The bloke I was thinking of may have had some other excuse for not turning up on the assignment. It may not have been a football match on the television. I could not swear to it. Come to think of it. I think his excuse may have been that his name was Larry O'Hara.

 

[Carl Steele]

I do find Larry's posts incomprehensible, but this has nothing to do with politics. He ignores whatever doesn't fit his argument and invents stuff which does.

 

[Carl Steele]

To be fair, if you are now as apolitical as you claim to be then I suppose you must find incomprehensible posts about...politics and the ideology of the group you wandered in and out of. That said, your confused denials about police infiltrating the group, though perhaps emotionally-derived, are still political whether you know it or not. The Sparts were a political phenomenon even though you deny it: and a bloody annoying destructive one.

Here we go again. I didn't say I was apolitical. You just made that up. Read the post again, and pay attention. It's only two lines.

For the record, I do think the Sparts were infiltrated by the police - is that clear enough for you?

That said, your confused denials about police infiltrating the group, though perhaps emotionally-derived, are still political whether you know it or not.

This, again ironically, is pure Jim Robertson. Beneath every utterance is a political thought, whether you know it or not. It was his main means of manipulation.

You only saw the Sparts from the outside. They were on the political scene true enough, but had they been preaching religion their behaviour (internal and external) would have been the same. Only their victims would have been different. The political ideology was merely a means to an end for Robertson. He wanted to preserve the group, at first for its own sake, it was an exercise in purity, and then he became financially dependent upon the group. The Sparts gave Robertson an income, an apartment, a retirement home in the bay area, and no doubt paid his funeral costs.

 

[tim]

on threads here you must always expect the unexpected. anything can happen and usually will.

So always expect the expected. And on threads about ancient tiffs and infiltration of in leftwing groups always expect the Mad Larry (Larry O'Hara ) Inquisition.

 

[Pickman's model]

So always expect the expected. And on threads about ancient tiffs and infiltration of in leftwing groups always expect the Mad Larry (Larry O'Hara ) Inquisition.

If only Larry O'Hara had access to all the tools of the Spanish inquisition

 

[PTK]

If only Larry O'Hara had access to all the tools of the Spanish inquisition

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. It is one of its two main weapons.

 

[PTK]

So always expect the expected. And on threads about ancient tiffs and infiltration of in leftwing groups always expect the Mad Larry (Larry O'Hara ) Inquisition.

Is the same Larry O'Hara who befriended fascists in the name of academic research?

 

[tim]

Is the same Larry O'Hara who befriended fascists in the name of academic research?

You might day so, I couldn't possibly comment.

However, I'm sure Larry O'Hara, himself, will be able to enlighten you.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

You might day so, I couldn't possibly comment.

However, I'm sure Larry O'Hara, himself, will be able to enlighten you.

I see as usual this thread has descended into the gutter with ad hominem abuse/slander/psychiatric labels, rather than addressing actual arguments. Sad bastards, not worth wasting my time on. Anybody reading my posts with an open mind can have made up their own mind. The rest can fuck off.

 

[PTK]

I see as usual this thread has descended into the gutter with ad hominem abuse/slander/psychiatric labels, rather than addressing actual arguments. Sad bastards, not worth wasting my time on. Anybody reading my posts with an open mind can have made up their own mind. The rest can fuck off.

"Fuck off" is a rather reactionary term of abuse, is it not?

 

[tim]

"Fuck off" is a rather reactionary term of abuse, is it not?

He was reacting to me winding him up.

 

[tim]

Do Larry's posts make sense to you? Genuine question.

They do after you've been reading them for a decade or so, although I doubt that it is the sense that was intended.

 

[Carl Steele]

I see as usual this thread has descended into the gutter with ad hominem abuse/slander/psychiatric labels, rather than addressing actual arguments. Sad bastards, not worth wasting my time on. Anybody reading my posts with an open mind can have made up their own mind. The rest can fuck off.

You've spent the entire thread (at least while I've been here) throwing around baseless ad hominem accusations. We could have had a useful discussion about the nature of police infiltration and the enquiry, but you've sabotaged the conversation with your personal attacks.

Is the same Larry O'Hara who befriended fascists in the name of academic research?

This is bad stuff. Really poisonous. You don't bother to provide any real info or context. What are we supposed to make of this?

They do after you've been reading them for a decade or so, although I doubt that it is the sense that was intended.

Some of them make sense if read as irony, and I half expected him to say much of it was joke, particularly the bizarre comment about the guy watching a football match.

 

[Pickman's model]

"Fuck off" is a rather reactionary term of abuse, is it not?

A reactionary term of abuse? Fuck off!