What's the Spartacist League up to these days?

[Carl Steele]

sparts are also a personal interest of mine despite never having been through the abuse that Carl talks about and my friend confirms. He doesn't like talking about it, but when he does, he says stuff like "you have no idea how abusive and toxic it was at every level," etc.

This is often the case because everybody's implicated. Talking about it means looking at your dark side because it's not like one or two leaders were dishing it out and everybody else was a victim. It was very democratic, everybody was under the spotlight at some point, nobody escaped being told what a useless piece of shit they were, and everybody got the opportunity to unload onto someone else. Everybody except Robertson of course. And now he's dead it's hardly surprising they are ripping each other's throats out. And btw there is money at stake in the form of property.

Was it common for Spartist families to appear among the rank and file of the sect? And how did they manage the abusive toxicity? (not well, I'd imagine)

No, they didn't do the family recruitment thing, though sometimes members of the same family were involved. I was in the British franchise and one time a mother, daughter, and son joined together (and left together) but this was unusual. In the US there were a few family connections, red diaper babies who got parents involved and such like.

 

[hitmouse]

Having crossed paths with (American) Spartacists in the Midlands many years ago, I thought they were more likely infiltrators themselves. Their presence certainly seemed to be at least an abstract argument for immigration controls...I was in the too sophisticated for its own good Big Flame at the time, indeed remained till it sadly dissolved.

Where is the evidence for your claim that members of the Spartacist League were state agents?

Well, we now have evidence that Barry Tompkins/HN106 was involved in infiltrating the Sparts, along with an apparent crossover into the Furedi RCT lot:

Barry Tompkins (alias) - Powerbase

powerbase.info

UCPI Daily Report, 12 May 2021

The spycops public inquiry hears details of 3 officers from the late 1970s, plus testimony from 'Paul Gray' who spied on antifascists & kids

campaignopposingpolicesurveillance.com

https://www.ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/MPS-0745735.pdf

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Well, we now have evidence that Barry Tompkins/HN106 was involved in infiltrating the Sparts, along with an apparent crossover into the Furedi RCT lot:

Barry Tompkins (alias) - Powerbase

powerbase.info

UCPI Daily Report, 12 May 2021

The spycops public inquiry hears details of 3 officers from the late 1970s, plus testimony from 'Paul Gray' who spied on antifascists & kids

campaignopposingpolicesurveillance.com

https://www.ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/MPS-0745735.pdf

Thanks for that: interesting

 

[Carl Steele]

Well, we now have evidence that Barry Tompkins/HN106 was involved in infiltrating the Sparts, along with an apparent crossover into the Furedi RCT lot

I really don't get this idea that the Sparts were "infiltrators". They got themselves excluded from public meetings and made no attempt to even socialise with other leftists. Hardly the behaviour of infiltrators. And besides, I was a member for several years. The Sparts were many things, but infiltrators they were not.

According to the UCPI report Barry Tompkins was never a member of the Sparts, and that seems right because I was a member at the time and don't recall anyone of that name. He seems to have been more involved with the RCP. There is mention of a three person group which had some relationship with the Sparts. I have a vague memory of something like this but I can't recall any names. This would have been around 1982 (we talked about the Falklands/Malvinas war which was either recent or ongoing). The leader, who may or may not have been called Barry, was an obnoxious prick who said he might join the Sparts and take over the group. He never did! Pity, it would have been fun to watch him try.

 

[hitmouse]

I really don't get this idea that the Sparts were "infiltrators". They got themselves excluded from public meetings and made no attempt to even socialise with other leftists. Hardly the behaviour of infiltrators. And besides, I was a member for several years. The Sparts were many things, but infiltrators they were not.

According to the UCPI report Barry Tompkins was never a member of the Sparts, and that seems right because I was a member at the time and don't recall anyone of that name. He seems to have been more involved with the RCP. There is mention of a three person group which had some relationship with the Sparts. I have a vague memory of something like this but I can't recall any names. This would have been around 1982 (we talked about the Falklands/Malvinas war which was either recent or ongoing). The leader, who may or may not have been called Barry, was an obnoxious prick who said he might join the Sparts and take over the group. He never did! Pity, it would have been fun to watch him try.

I mean, I don't think the Sparts were "infiltrators" in the sense that the group was consciously directed by the state or anything, it'd be silly to claim that. But if you can be bothered to dig through the documentation associated with Tompkins/HN106, he was definitely providing the state with details on members of the SL among others:

Special Branch report enclosing a photograph of the Treasurer of the London Branch of the Spartacus League - Undercover Policing Inquiry

www.ucpi.org.uk

Special Branch report providing details of an Oxford University Professor who subscribes to two Spartacus League publications - Undercover Policing Inquiry

www.ucpi.org.uk

Special Branch report on a 'Fusion Meeting' of the Spartacus League and Lenin Faction - Undercover Policing Inquiry

www.ucpi.org.uk

Special Branch report providing the temporary address of two member of the Spartacist League - Undercover Policing Inquiry

www.ucpi.org.uk

Special Branch report enclosing a photograph of a member of the Spartacus League - Undercover Policing Inquiry

www.ucpi.org.uk

Special Branch report stating that an Oxford University Professor receives copies of Spartacist Britain and Workers Vanguard - Undercover Policing Inquiry

www.ucpi.org.uk

Along with this one, which has a pretty great title:

Special Branch report stating that the Revolutionary Communist Tendency are disappointed by the lack of impact made by the Smash the Prevention of Terrorism Act Campaign amongst the working class - Undercover Policing Inquiry

www.ucpi.org.uk

 

[Carl Steele]

I mean, I don't think the Sparts were "infiltrators" in the sense that the group was consciously directed by the state or anything, it'd be silly to claim that. But if you can be bothered to dig through the documentation associated with Tompkins/HN106, he was definitely providing the state with details on members of the SL among others:

Special Branch report enclosing a photograph of the Treasurer of the London Branch of the Spartacus League - Undercover Policing Inquiry

www.ucpi.org.uk

Thanks for the links. I can't make much sense of the documents. I have no idea who these RLL people are. I don't remember the group at all.

The Leninist Faction/Spart fusion was reported in Spartacist Britain - maybe this is why AG and MH are named in the otherwise redacted report - so it was public knowledge for the few who were interested. But the report reads as if it were written by someone inside the meeting.

If Tompkins was not a member (which the ucpi report says) I don't know how he would get the details of Sparts changing addresses, or how he would have got a photo of the treasurer of the London Branch and her biographical details. And then there's another photo of a member. This could only come from inside the organisation. Back in 1980 taking a photo of someone was not an inconspicuous or normal thing to do.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I notice with interest that both here and to the inquiry, Spartacist League members are in denial about themselves being infiltrated, despite the primary source evidence. This truly confirms that many Trotskyists are the political equivalent of Bourbons, only worse: have forgotten everything & learnt nothing. No wonder they are in the dustbin of history. If Victor Serge (what every socialist should know about state repression) is a bit libertarian for them, how about the excellent 1860 book by Karl Marx, Herr Vogt. Engels thought this book "better than the Eighteenth Brumaire", Lassalle thought it "a masterpiece" (for a detailed analysis see David Pegg's article in Notes From the Borderland issue 2). As Trotsky himself might say "epigones, don't you just love em?"

 

[PTK]

This is often the case because everybody's implicated. Talking about it means looking at your dark side because it's not like one or two leaders were dishing it out and everybody else was a victim. It was very democratic, everybody was under the spotlight at some point, nobody escaped being told what a useless piece of shit they were, and everybody got the opportunity to unload onto someone else. Everybody except Robertson of course. And now he's dead it's hardly surprising they are ripping each other's throats out. And btw there is money at stake in the form of property.



No, they didn't do the family recruitment thing, though sometimes members of the same family were involved. I was in the British franchise and one time a mother, daughter, and son joined together (and left together) but this was unusual. InI the US there were a few family connections, red diaper babies who got parents involved and such like.

I think I remember this family group joining! I did not even know that I had this memory, until I saw your comment. I cannot remember much about them. Did they not all move to London from a smalll town? It is amazing, to me, the forgotten memories that can surface with an appropriate prompt.

 

[Carl Steele]

I notice with interest that both here and to the inquiry, Spartacist League members are in denial about themselves being infiltrated, despite the primary source evidence.

I am not in denial about the Sparts being infiltrated, but the "primary source evidence" as you call it doesn't make sense. Perhaps you expect the cops to be up front and honest when they give evidence to an enquiry. Barry Tompkins was not a member of the Sparts, and probably not even a sympathiser, nobody who was around at the time remembers the name. Somebody though was passing info to the cops, we just don't have a name, and we're not going to get one. It's called "freedom of information".

You are right though, I like nothing more than a couple of bourbons with my cup of tea.

I think I remember this family group joining! I did not even know that I had this memory, until I saw your comment. I cannot remember much about them. Did they not all move to London from a smalll town? It is amazing, to me, the forgotten memories that can surface with an appropriate prompt.

Yes, I think they came from a small town in Wales. They were nice people as I recall. Not surprisingly they didn't last long in the hellhole that was the London branch.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I am not in denial about the Sparts being infiltrated, but the "primary source evidence" as you call it doesn't make sense. Perhaps you expect the cops to be up front and honest when they give evidence to an enquiry. Barry Tompkins was not a member of the Sparts, and probably not even a sympathiser, nobody who was around at the time remembers the name. Somebody though was passing info to the cops, we just don't have a name, and we're not going to get one. It's called "freedom of information".

You are right though, I like nothing more than a couple of bourbons with my cup of tea.



Yes, I think they came from a small town in Wales. They were nice people as I recall. Not surprisingly they didn't last long in the hellhole that was the London branch.

typical fatuous non-response: have you idiots not considered he might have used a false name. You think I expect police honesty? Ludicrous. See you've ignored comments on Serge/Marx. Typical epigone

 

[Carl Steele]

typical fatuous non-response: have you idiots not considered he might have used a false name. You think I expect police honesty? Ludicrous. See you've ignored comments on Serge/Marx. Typical epigone

Try to stop beating the horse, it's been dead for a while. Barry Tompkins was the false name, supposedly. Have you read the UCPI documents? It looks very much like the cops have attributed documents to Tompkins which were written by others, to obscure what actually happened.

I'm sure being in Big Flame was a much more pleasant than being a Spart, but Big Flame are right there in the dustbin alongside the Sparts.

 

[Pickman's model]

I notice with interest that both here and to the inquiry, Spartacist League members are in denial about themselves being infiltrated, despite the primary source evidence. This truly confirms that many Trotskyists are the political equivalent of Bourbons, only worse: have forgotten everything & learnt nothing. No wonder they are in the dustbin of history. If Victor Serge (what every socialist should know about state repression) is a bit libertarian for them, how about the excellent 1860 book by Karl Marx, Herr Vogt. Engels thought this book "better than the Eighteenth Brumaire", Lassalle thought it "a masterpiece" (for a detailed analysis see David Pegg's article in Notes From the Borderland issue 2). As Trotsky himself might say "epigones, don't you just love em?"

I'll have to look this HV put, never heard of it before

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Try to stop beating the horse, it's been dead for a while. Barry Tompkins was the false name, supposedly. Have you read the UCPI documents? It looks very much like the cops have attributed documents to Tompkins which were written by others, to obscure what actually happened.

I'm sure being in Big Flame was a much more pleasant than being a Spart, but Big Flame are right there in the dustbin alongside the Sparts.

Do you really believe they only used one false name? I forgot: it was you accusing me of believing what the police say. You can't even keep to a simple script.

As for reading, have you read Serge and Marx on Vogt?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I'll have to look this HV put, never heard of it before

Its an excellent book but usually excluded from the orthodox canon. Shouldn't be

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Try to stop beating the horse, it's been dead for a while. Barry Tompkins was the false name, supposedly. Have you read the UCPI documents? It looks very much like the cops have attributed documents to Tompkins which were written by others, to obscure what actually happened.

I'm sure being in Big Flame was a much more pleasant than being a Spart, but Big Flame are right there in the dustbin alongside the Sparts.

Rather not be in the same dustbin as Trotskyist bores thanks.

 

[Carl Steele]

Tompkin's main focus was the RCP (and related splinters). There are probably some ex-RCPers who remember Barry Tompkins. I'd be interested to hear from them.

His cover job was as a delivery driver for garden supplies in London. He had a van supplied by the cops. There was nobody in the Sparts in the early 80s in London who drove a van (either for a living or privately). Nobody owned a car. It doesn't matter what his name was, this guy was never a Spart.

 

[hitmouse]

Fwiw, what he says in his statement is:





Did the sparts really have a regular attendance of 50-60 at their meetings?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Fwiw, what he says in his statement is:
View attachment 269388
View attachment 269389
View attachment 269390
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Did the sparts really have a regular attendance of 50-60 at their meetings?

58/59 show how utterly lax SL security was, that he could gather intelligence without having to recite the Transitional Programme from memory....

 

[belboid]

58/59 show how utterly lax SL security was, that he could gather intelligence without having to recite the Transitional Programme from memory....

Don’t be daft. They had be able to recite the seventeen errors falsehoods and slanders made by the American SWP in their interpretation of the Transitional Programme.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Don’t be daft. They had be able to recite the seventeen errors falsehoods and slanders made by the American SWP in their interpretation of the Transitional Programme.

yes, that as well (for lower-level membership). Meanwhile, the SB were busy hoovering up membership details without even paying a sub. You've got to laugh...

 

[PTK]

58/59 show how utterly lax SL security was, that he could gather intelligence without having to recite the Transitional Programme from memory....

I am not sure that it is lax to allow someone to come to the office of your organisation, as long as that person is not allowed to look at files.

 

[PTK]

Tompkin's main focus was the RCP (and related splinters). There are probably some ex-RCPers who remember Barry Tompkins. I'd be interested to hear from them.

His cover job was as a delivery driver for garden supplies in London. He had a van supplied by the cops. There was nobody in the Sparts in the early 80s in London who drove a van (either for a living or privately). Nobody owned a car. It doesn't matter what his name was, this guy was never a Spart.

I have not been following the Spycops saga closely. Was not the SDS distinct from the Special Branch? When are we going to learn the truth about SB infiltration?

I think that there may have been someone called Barry who joined, but who was expelled because he chose to stay at home one Saturday afternoon to watch the footie on the telly, rather than attend an event for which he had been signed up.

 

[Carl Steele]

I am not sure that it is lax to allow someone to come to the office of your organisation, as long as that person is not allowed to look at files.

It wasn't unusual for non-members to be in the office, particularly after a demonstration. The office had two floors and non-members would be in the larger meeting room. It wasn't a security risk, and there wasn't much to look at anyway. The famous filing system was a joke. The accounts of people moving into other people's apartments, above a restaurant etc. could only come from an established if not senior member. This kind of detail was not recorded.


Tompkin's statement is over 50 pages long and very muddled. He disowns quite a lot of the reports attributed to him, says he couldn't have handed over addresses because his relationship was too distant to get this info (sometimes he implies differently), and often confuses the Sparts and RCP (by which I mean any of RCP/RCT/RMT/RLL; alphabet soup!). I don't think the Sparts had many East London events beyond a few paper sales. The RCP were active in East London with their front organisation ELWAR, which he mentions several times and at one point says the Sparts sent him into it (didn't happen). At times he claims the Sparts and the RCP were close organisations, he even uses the phrase "sister organisations" to describe the relationship (which couldn't be further from the truth).

He's created a narrative from muddled memories - no shame in that, we all do it, but the report is a sham which provides no real information beyond the fact that someone was passing info to the cops.

I think that there may have been someone called Barry who joined, but who was expelled because he chose to stay at home one Saturday afternoon to watch the footie on the telly, rather than attend an event for which he had been signed up.

Now you've jogged my memory. I recall a young guy (younger than the rest of us) who habitually wore a shirt and tie and always seemed to be grinning. I don't remember his name or the expulsion. He took up with an older woman, sometimes they'd sit on the stairs locked together in a passionate embrace. Is this who you're thinking of?

Barry Tompkins was a van driver with a heavy beard apparently.

 

[imposs1904]

I have not been following the Spycops saga closely. Was not the SDS distinct from the Special Branch? When are we going to learn the truth about SB infiltration?

I think that there may have been someone called Barry who joined, but who was expelled because he chose to stay at home one Saturday afternoon to watch the footie on the telly, rather than attend an event for which he had been signed up.

Unless it was a FA Cup final, there wasn't a lot of footie on the telly on a Saturday afternoon back in the day.

 

[hitmouse]

Unless it was a FA Cup final, there wasn't a lot of footie on the telly on a Saturday afternoon back in the day.

Of all the possible turns this thread could take, I was not expecting it to turn into a discussion of early 80s TV football schedules, well done.

 

[The39thStep]

Don’t be daft. They had be able to recite the seventeen errors falsehoods and slanders made by the American SWP in their interpretation of the Transitional Programme.

There was a month or so , back in the day, when if you had the misfortune to bump into a Spart you'd be greeted with' What do you think about Tony Cliff advocating workers cross picket lines?'

 

[imposs1904]

Of all the possible turns this thread could take, I was not expecting it to turn into a discussion of early 80s TV football schedules, well done.

Am I wrong, though?

 

[hitmouse]

Am I wrong, though?

I wasn't around then so I dunno. I'm hoping someone will now cross-check the dates of FA Cup finals against important Spart events, like that time when someone worked out the precise date when Ice Cube had a good day.

 

[belboid]

I recall a demo being organised n Tottenham (around Winston Silcott, iirr) for the same day as the fa cup final. That wasn’t till 2001 tho, Arsenal v Liverpool. The demo was crap

 

[Pickman's model]

Of all the possible turns this thread could take, I was not expecting it to turn into a discussion of early 80s TV football schedules, well done.

on threads here you must always expect the unexpected. anything can happen and usually will.