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Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.

smokedout said:
I'm not sure I'd call urban a hotbed of transphobia, but it is one of the few sites where you can rock up and call trans posters men without consequence as we've seen on this thread. Even on mumsnet that would get you a strike. It's certainly not a particularly welcoming place for trans people and it's only the fact that these discussions rarely occur that makes it tolerable.

But that in itself reveals a problem. Not aimed at you Danny but the endless trans debate is really taking it's toll on trans people - especially as we're now watching the attempted eradication of trans people from society across the ocean in the knowledge that there are many in the UK who very much want to see the same thing happen here. It's certainly affected my mental health because it never fucking stops and it's impossible to get away from. It's the kind of thing I might once have turned to this community for support with. But that's sadly impossible, I may respond to things but I daren't pro-actively post about it, not in p&p or nobbing or sobbing or even on the LGBTQ support thread, because I know if I do, because look how this thread - a thread dominated by cis men - has played out.

This has been one of the most brutal media witch hunts, well since the last one, and it's impossible to discuss it without being met by people immediately becoming defensive and hostile, or logic brain men using it as an opportunity to endlessly debate their own personal pet theories, or outright aggresive transphobia or being accused of silencing people simply as a result of disagreeing with them or trying to correct misinformation or give (one person's) trans perspective on the issue. And when trans people are accused of silencing people simply for responding to posts made by people about trans people then I'm not sure how it's possible to engage here on equal terms. Urban is not a very nice place to be trans, it's understandable many trans and queer posters have left and there is a reason it has gained the reputation it has.
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Thanks for that. I’m sorry for your experiences but this contribution is valuable.
 
smokedout said:
I'm not sure I'd call urban a hotbed of transphobia, but it is one of the few sites where you can rock up and call trans posters men without consequence as we've seen on this thread. Even on mumsnet that would get you a strike. It's certainly not a particularly welcoming place for trans people and it's only the fact that these discussions rarely occur that makes it tolerable.

But that in itself reveals a problem. Not aimed at you Danny but the endless trans debate is really taking it's toll on trans people - especially as we're now watching the attempted eradication of trans people from society across the ocean in the knowledge that there are many in the UK who very much want to see the same thing happen here. It's certainly affected my mental health because it never fucking stops and it's impossible to get away from. It's the kind of thing I might once have turned to this community for support with. But that's sadly impossible, I may respond to things but I daren't pro-actively post about it, not in p&p or nobbing or sobbing or even on the LGBTQ support thread, because I know if I do, because look how this thread - a thread dominated by cis men - has played out.

This has been one of the most brutal media witch hunts, well since the last one, and it's impossible to discuss it without being met by people immediately becoming defensive and hostile, or logic brain men using it as an opportunity to endlessly debate their own personal pet theories, or outright aggresive transphobia or being accused of silencing people simply as a result of disagreeing with them or trying to correct misinformation or give (one person's) trans perspective on the issue. And when trans people are accused of silencing people simply for responding to posts made by people about trans people then I'm not sure how it's possible to engage here on equal terms. Urban is not a very nice place to be trans, it's understandable many trans and queer posters have left and there is a reason it has gained the reputation it has.
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Your posts have done more to help me understand the trans experience than anything else, so thanks for persisting in the face of what must be exhausting challenges. Definitely helped solidify my views, which were previously all over the place on this topic - and there was probably a point at which I could have easily fallen down the GC rabbit hole without the discussions on Urban. Which despite this apparent reputation, have been far more even handed than on other parts of the internet I frequent where pro-trans voices have been utterly drowned out / silenced.
 
8ball said:
There are some great suggestions there (such as point 6), but if this was the link you intended to post can you direct us to the part illustrating your point?
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Sorry should be

academic.oup.com

‘She Was Just Like A Lassie’: Analysing The Views of Cis-Women In Custody About Their Experiences of Living With Transgender Women In The Scottish Prison Estate

Abstract. The subject of transgender rights has recently come under increasing scrutiny in many parts of the world. Despite this, there has been no researc
academic.oup.com academic.oup.com

It was in smokedout's post.
 
danny la rouge said:
I don't hold out a great deal of hope. I've seen how this plays out, time and again. But at some point people will need to engage in good faith with each other.
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I've tried this over and over as have many trans people i know. all you get back is abuse and smears and lies - or they won't engage at all because they're waiting for you to get angry so they can show the word how angry and unreasonable the transes are.,

But here i am, a trans person willing to engage in good faith, and still willing to listen even though i have been for years now, and i haven't heard anything new in 5 years.
 
Jennaonthebeach said:
I've tried this over and over as have many trans people i know. all you get back is abuse and smears and lies - or they won't engage at all because they're waiting for you to get angry so they can show the word how angry and unreasonable the transes are.,

But here i am, a trans person willing to engage in good faith, and still willing to listen even though i have been for years now, and i haven't heard anything new in 5 years.
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Each time I come back to urban it strikes me how some things are the same (described by smokedout earlier). But also, each time it strikes me that the "anti" or insulting views are more in high relief nowadays. Sometimes now there's a collective sharp intake of breath when the "critical" anti-trans content steps over the acceptable/critical into deliberately insulting and is recognised as such.

The more subtle use of "biological male" still slips under the radar though.

I'm sure that doesn't help when you're on the receiving end but there's hope yet is what I'm saying. In the long view. Perhaps when life's rich pattern presents the more extreme, insulting of the GC sisters with a trans or non-binary child or relative or friend that they need to come to terms with (as Anita Bryant found out).

FWIW I found your posts to be assertive rather than silencing. I don't know if you were being referenced though because I asked but wasn't told when this alleged "silencing" apparently started.
 
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cesare said:
Each time I come back to urban it strikes me how some things are the same (described by smokedout earlier). But also, each time it strikes me that the "anti" or insulting views are more in high relief nowadays. Sometimes now there's a collective sharp intake of breath when the critical trans content steps over the acceptable/critical into deliberately insulting and is recognised as such.

The more subtle use of "biological male" still slips under the radar though.

I'm sure that doesn't help when you're on the receiving end but there's hope yet is what I'm saying. In the long view. Perhaps when life's rich pattern presents the more extreme, insulting of the GC sisters with a trans or non-binary child or relative or friend that they need to come to terms with (as Anita Bryant found out).

FWIW I found your posts to be assertive rather than silencing. I don't know if you were being referenced though because I asked but wasn't told when this alleged "silencing" apparently started.
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I'm quite to the point there days - partly autism, but a lot to do with the fact that I've been dealing with this stuff for nearly a decade - particularly the last 5 years. When i first arrived on Urban I noticed the anti trans stuff over a large number of threads so I kept it all to myself, but now I'm out so to speak I feel I need to stand up to the obvious nonsense. But I've not attacked anyone on a personal level - merely disagreed with what they've said. Most of the stuff on this thread has been innuendo and dog-whistles rather than out and out transphobia, though i did get misgendered and that has not been acknowledged by anyone on the anti trans side.
I've not seen anything on this thread that amounts to "silencing women". I find it amusing that just disagreeing with them seems to send them off like a shrivelled slug, after being salted. I know I tread a fine line here because I really don't want to start receiving accusations of perversion or sexual abuse which is the usual outcome, and does upset me quite a lot. I think I have definitely seen on this thread though the accusation that I'm a man, colluding with men, to silence all women, and if continued to its logical conclusion it ends with accusations of male abuse and being called a MRA. Trans people get the message but a lot of cis people seem to not see it so again, trans people are made to look angry and unreasonable.
 
Jennaonthebeach said:
I'm quite to the point there days - partly autism, but a lot to do with the fact that I've been dealing with this stuff for nearly a decade - particularly the last 5 years. When i first arrived on Urban I noticed the anti trans stuff over a large number of threads so I kept it all to myself, but now I'm out so to speak I feel I need to stand up to the obvious nonsense. But I've not attacked anyone on a personal level - merely disagreed with what they've said. Most of the stuff on this thread has been innuendo and dog-whistles rather than out and out transphobia, though i did get misgendered and that has not been acknowledged by anyone on the anti trans side.
I've not seen anything on this thread that amounts to silencing women. I find it amusing that just disagreeing with them seems to send them off like a shrivelled slug, after being salted. I know I tread a fine line here because I really don't want to start receiving accusations of perversion or sexual abuse which is the usual outcome, and does upset me quite a lot.
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I can only speak for myself, but I find that many cis men react negatively to my style, which is usually "quite to the point" like yours. Actually many women react badly to my "quite to the point" style as well. I think there's something there about expectations of women and how we express ourselves.

You haven't attacked anyone on a personal level on this thread as far as I can see; and it's also fine to disagree (I think).

I'm a woman too and I certainly didn't find anything you said as silencing, but the aggrieved people might be referring to someone else, they haven't explained.

Anyway, onwards and upwards, we'll get there x
 
cesare said:
I can only speak for myself, but I find that many cis men react negatively to my style, which is usually "quite to the point" like yours. Actually many women react badly to my "quite to the point" style as well. I think there's something there about expectations of women and how we express ourselves.

You haven't attacked anyone on a personal level on this thread as far as I can see; and it's also fine to disagree (I think).

I'm a woman too and I certainly didn't find anything you said as silencing, but the aggrieved people might be referring to someone else, they haven't explained.

Anyway, onwards and upwards, we'll get there x
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Yeah I can't be sure they were referring to me because of the weird way they post replies without quoting what they are replying to or naming who they are talking to - on Twitter they call it a subtweet and its considered really bad form. But they appeared on the thread soon after my posts so I think its a reasonable assumption that least some of them were aimed at me. I see them now as a warning shot - a shot over the bow - 'we've got your number now mate so you'd better watch it'. I hope I'm wrong.

And I am actually very optimistic about the future for trans people. Young people don't stand for this nonsense. They are extremely pro trans in statistical terms, and if you see the photos of the gender critical rallies they are mostly people of a certain age - well, my sort of age upwards (I'm 56). I think come back in 20 years and trans people will be completely accepted in society and all of this will be baffling to young people growing up in the 2050s and 2060s. What's going on now is the inevitable backlash of conservatism that always seems to have to play out on these islands. The sooner we get through it the better.
 
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cesare said:
I'm a woman too and I certainly didn't find anything you said as silencing, but the aggrieved people might be referring to someone else, they haven't explained.
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They're unable to explain, what with all the silence.

Really gets you coming and going, the old silencing. There does seem to be a loophole where you're allowed to tell everyone how silent you are, but you're forbidden from giving any details about how or why the silencing took place.

You're also unable to call out people on your side of the argument when say they shit things to people. Being robbed of even that basic level of integrity is perhaps the cruellest thing about being silenced.
 
Jennaonthebeach said:
Yeah I can't be sure they were referring to me because of the weird way they post replies without quoting what they are replying to or naming who they are talking to - on Twitter they call it a subtweet and its considered really bad form. But they appeared on the thread soon after my posts so I think its a reasonable assumption that least some of them were aimed at me. I see them now as a warning shot - a shot over the bow - 'we've got your number now mate so you'd better watch it'. I hope I'm wrong.
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Yes, I get what you're saying. Suddenly there's a seemingly unconnected flounce-from-thread post that people pay attention to, rather than the flouncer replying to whatever post that's pissed them off so much that the other posters can respond to. That's why I asked when these alleged "silencing" posts started.

I hope you're wrong too. But in any event I don't think that these incidents are simply waved through anymore, you have support.
 
SpookyFrank said:
They're unable to explain, what with all the silence.

Really gets you coming and going, the old silencing. There does seem to be a loophole where you're allowed to tell everyone how silent you are, but you're forbidden from giving any details about how or why the silencing took place.

You're also unable to call out people on your side of the argument when say they shit things to people. Being robbed of even that basic level of integrity is perhaps the cruellest thing about being silenced.
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Silencing is a thing though. It's coercive and abusive.

I'm just not sure that there's been any silencing on this thread so far.
 
I agree that there is support here for trans people although I appreciate that when your existence is being questioned that must be so upsetting that the support might not be immediately evident

I am puzzled why people came onto a thread to say they are leaving the thread because they were silenced. I'm a cis woman and I didn't feel silenced on this thread

Westminster's action is alarming in attempting to override Holyrood and it's in such bad faith to use trans people as an easy target in this manoeuvre.

I'd really like to know more about the precedent of this and what defence Holyrood has against it (obviously I could google it myself but I've got a lot of other work to do this evening and wouldn't mind someone sharing their homework with me)
 
On historical balance I’d say it’s been rougher for Trans posters than GC feminists. It’s baffling tbh that people are claiming to have been chased from this thread. Where?
 
Fair enough. It annoys me that you stick your oar in with all kinds of stuff such as Brexit whilst living in a different hemisphere which made me comment there tbh.
 
cesare said:
The more subtle use of "biological male" still slips under the radar though.
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Whilst I'd agree that it could amount to transphobic abuse if that fact was cited in a way calculated to have a pop at trans women, I don't think every use necessarily amounts to abuse; there are circumstances where biology is relevant. One example being the context in which it was used in this thread i.e. a discussion of women's fears around rape. Biology is absolutely critical in that; in the UK the offence requires a penis. (Accepting, of course, that perhaps the thread shouldn't have drifted onto that topic - a point I made at the time.)

And, whilst calling a trans women a man is obviously contentious, surely a recognition that trans women are biologically male isn't? Nobody would seriously dispute that; if they weren't biologically male, they would be cis women; that biological fact is literally what defines them as trans.

I think it's that idea that people shouldn't state those facts even when relevant and done in a non-abusive way that leads some to think there's silencing in discussions on this topic (though I'd agree with you that it's not obvious that anyone's been silenced on this thread).
 
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Miss-Shelf said:
I'd really like to know more about the precedent of this and what defence Holyrood has against it (obviously I could google it myself but I've got a lot of other work to do this evening and wouldn't mind someone sharing their homework with me)
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Getting back to the topic of the thread...

There is no precedent; s.35 has never been used before. The Scots can try to challenge the Secretary of State in the courts, by way of judicial review. But there's a high bar for success, as the courts are reluctant to interfere with the discretion given to ministers by Parliament.

Whilst most (if not all) of his reasons for using s.35 are (at the very least) unconvincing, if be surprised if the court found that all were so bad - essentially unlawful or so irrational that no reasonable person could've made them in the circumstances - that the decision was struck down. So I suspect Westminster would win. But it's a close call.
 
Athos said:
Getting back to the topic of the thread...

There is no precedent; s.35 has never been used before. The Scots can try to challenge the Secretary of State in the courts, by way of judicial review. But there's a high bar for success, as the courts are reluctant to interfere with the discretion given to ministers by Parliament.

Whilst most (if not all) of his reasons for using s.35 are (at the very least) unconvincing, if be surprised if the court found that all were so bad - essentially unlawful or so irrational that no reasonable person could've made them in the circumstances - that the decision was struck down. So I suspect Westminster would win. But it's a close call.
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Thank you
 
SpookyFrank said:
All the more reason not to throw that word around whenever people disagree with you on the internet.
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Could I just say out of fairness that most people who left the thread did not say they were being silenced. Also one of them responded to the post that disgruntled them so it's pretty clear why they left. I didn't agree but I think it's fine to walk away and it's also fine to have had enough of this topic and it's fine to say so. And on reflection it's women who are more likely to walk away than men who are likely to keep rabbiting on and I suspect there's reasons for that. And I think that's where (the later) accusations of being silenced are coming from. I don't think it's an entirely literal sense of being silenced.

I also think trans posters should not be made to tread on eggshells on this topic for fear of being accused of silencing women but I see no reason to think that all those who have walked away would necessarily disagree with that.
 
That's the problem with discussing this topic. Everyone ends up treading on eggshells. Or there's a row. Many posters stay out of it for that reason.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
That's the problem with discussing this topic. Everyone ends up treading on eggshells. Or there's a row. Many posters stay out of it for that reason.
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Imagine if it all affected you though. Whether or not you want the aggro it would be coming your way anyway.

I really don't think the eggshell treading was a problem anyway. People walk away and it probably helps thinking these things through away from the heat. It's just a few posters ramping up the drama that causes the row. And co-op shitstirring in the first place of course.
 
It’s the polar opposite of claims that folk have been ‘chased’ from the thread. Seems nobody can talk to each other so probably best I don’t either.
 
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