Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.

[JTG]

I think that on a thread concerning legislation which affects trans people directly and cis people not one iota and on which trans people have taken time to explain their own experience in the face of the usual attempts to divert the conversation into libelling them by association with sex offenders, it is disingenuous in the extreme for a handful of intolerant people to come in and play the victim here.
We are living through a period in which trans people are attacked daily in both the right wing and liberal press, in which we are seeing Kellie-Jay Keen's anti-trans demonstrations attended by anti-abortionists, outright Nazis (and Glinner) and during which fucking Mein Kampf has been quoted. If you're taking a side which is also inhabited by a woman who has called for armed men to patrol women's toilets to 'protect' them, literal white nationalists and Alex fucking Salmond then I reckon it's time to stop and have a hard think about where you're headed.

As I said up thread, I've stayed off Urban for quite some time partly because of this kind of behaviour. It's abhorrent anyway but particularly difficult to read when trying to be an ally to trans people who are friends irl and have been brave enough to share some of their own struggles and how this vile atmosphere of oppression that seems to grow by the day affects their health and daily life. I don't think Urban has improved on that score and it's to these boards discredit that it still appears to be a thing. Sort yourselves out.

 

[krtek a houby]

The anti-trans lot these days like to play victim, have noticed this ploy(and not just urban).

 

[Athos]

I think that on a thread concerning legislation which affects trans people directly and cis people not one iota and on which trans people have taken time to explain their own experience in the face of the usual attempts to divert the conversation into libelling them by association with sex offenders, it is disingenuous in the extreme for a handful of intolerant people to come in and play the victim here.
We are living through a period in which trans people are attacked daily in both the right wing and liberal press, in which we are seeing Kellie-Jay Keen's anti-trans demonstrations attended by anti-abortionists, outright Nazis (and Glinner) and during which fucking Mein Kampf has been quoted. If you're taking a side which is also inhabited by a woman who has called for armed men to patrol women's toilets to 'protect' them, literal white nationalists and Alex fucking Salmond then I reckon it's time to stop and have a hard think about where you're headed.

As I said up thread, I've stayed off Urban for quite some time partly because of this kind of behaviour. It's abhorrent anyway but particularly difficult to read when trying to be an ally to trans people who are friends irl and have been brave enough to share some of their own struggles and how this vile atmosphere of oppression that seems to grow by the day affects their health and daily life. I don't think Urban has improved on that score and it's to these boards discredit that it still appears to be a thing. Sort yourselves out.

Not everyone agrees with you that the proposed legislation doesn't affect cis people; many cis women fear its impact.

Whether or not they're right to do so - I'd suggest the evidence from countries in which self-id operates indicates that at least some of what's feared is unlikely - it's a bit much to tell people it's off limits.

Also, the thread isn't just about the content of the bill; it's about a wider constitutional issue that's of interest to many.

I agree with you that we ought to call out transphobia, but, rather than identify any specific instances it is (ironically) you who's libelling by association. And, as far as I can see, an imagined one; none of the posters here are associated with Posie Parker, Linnehan, Salmond, or white supremacists to my knowledge - if you have evidence to the contrary, please share.

Generally the tone of the discussion in this thread has been respectful and measured (certainly by the standards of the wider Internet, and even Urban of the recent past). If anything, your post is the one that's stoking any conflict!

 

[krtek a houby]

I think that on a thread concerning legislation which affects trans people directly and cis people not one iota and on which trans people have taken time to explain their own experience in the face of the usual attempts to divert the conversation into libelling them by association with sex offenders, it is disingenuous in the extreme for a handful of intolerant people to come in and play the victim here.
We are living through a period in which trans people are attacked daily in both the right wing and liberal press, in which we are seeing Kellie-Jay Keen's anti-trans demonstrations attended by anti-abortionists, outright Nazis (and Glinner) and during which fucking Mein Kampf has been quoted. If you're taking a side which is also inhabited by a woman who has called for armed men to patrol women's toilets to 'protect' them, literal white nationalists and Alex fucking Salmond then I reckon it's time to stop and have a hard think about where you're headed.

As I said up thread, I've stayed off Urban for quite some time partly because of this kind of behaviour. It's abhorrent anyway but particularly difficult to read when trying to be an ally to trans people who are friends irl and have been brave enough to share some of their own struggles and how this vile atmosphere of oppression that seems to grow by the day affects their health and daily life. I don't think Urban has improved on that score and it's to these boards discredit that it still appears to be a thing. Sort yourselves out.

Powerful and most articulate. Thank you for posting this. Am so angry and moved at the same time. But can't do it justice like you have.

There's some dishonest and downright evil shit being posted on this thread. Needs to be countered like your sensible and sensitive post.

 

[Santino]

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

There's something deeply unpleasant about the way cis women are being silenced on this thread.

Cis women are not being silenced on this thread. The ones that have been anti trans have been disagreed with because of their anti trans views. Rightfully so.

And no amount of shitty misgendering is going to shut me up in a discussion about my own rights.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Yeah, that's the same. It's exactly the same.

Only seems to happen when getting push back on their hateful nonsense though. How do any of you think that trans people feel through all this?

 

[Santino]

Women are only silenced when they post hateful nonsense. Yeah, that checks out.

Move along, ladies, your concerns have been allayed.

 

[krtek a houby]

Women are only silenced when they post hateful nonsense. Yeah, that checks out.

Move along, ladies, your concerns have been allayed.

More disingenuous shit stirring.

Try harder.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Women are only silenced when they post hateful nonsense. Yeah, that checks out.

Move along, ladies, your concerns have been allayed.

See?

That's what you people do. You take statements out of context, make up your own quotes, and apply whole meaning to them that was never there. You like to pretend that you are being attacked for being a woman, but in fact you are being disagreed with because you are spouting hateful nonsense. I am so done with your shit. Putting you on ignore.

 

[Santino]

More disingenuous shit stirring.

Try harder.

It was ironic not disingenuous.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

It was ironic not disingenuous.

it was extremely disingenuous.

You keep going on about "concerns" and yet nothing of substance ever gets referenced. Its all innuendo and lies.

And I'm a woman and I have not been silenced. The majority of women on Urban are not anti trans and I suspect its the behaviour of a few fanatical anti trans obsessives that drives them out of treads like this.

 

[Pickman's model]

It was ironic not disingenuous.

The last refuge of the scoundrel

 

[Athos]

it was extremely disingenuous.

You keep going on about "concerns" and yet nothing of substance ever gets referenced. Its all innuendo and lies.

And I'm a woman and I have not been silenced. The majority of women on Urban are not anti trans and I suspect its the behaviour of a few fanatical anti trans obsessives that drives them out of treads like this.

Whether or not I agree with the idea that they've been silenced, it's a bit unfair to label the women who've left this thread as "anti-trans".

They've all expressed empathy and compassion towards trans people over a number of threads. And I'm unaware of anything they've said that's transphobic.

Clearly they do have concerns. Whether or not you agree with them on everything, the idea that a biologically male rapist will be put in a woman's prison isn't fanciful, and you must be able to see why women would be concerned by that.

I take the point that, arguably, the prison issue isn't directly the subject of the thread, but it's certainly adjacent to it, and people on both 'sides' (and none) were discussing it.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Whether or not I agree with the idea that they've been silenced, it's a bit unfair to label the women who've left this thread as "anti-trans".

They've all expressed empathy and compassion towards trans people over a number of threads. And I'm unaware of anything they've said that's transphobic.

Clearly they do have concerns. Whether or not you agree with them on everything, the idea that a biologically male rapist will be put in a woman's prison isn't fanciful, and you must be able to see why women would be concerned by that.

I take the point that, arguably, the prison issue isn't directly the subject of the thread, but it's certainly adjacent to it, and people on both 'sides' (and none) were discussing it.

OK, bro.

 

[Athos]

OK, bro.

Cool, sis.

 

[Yossarian]

And I'm unaware of anything they've said that's transphobic.

Did you miss the drive-by misgendering?

Slow hand clap for all the men of urban who have been part of that - however you identify.

 

[JTG]

Generally the tone of the discussion in this thread has been respectful and measured (certainly by the standards of the wider Internet, and even Urban of the recent past). If anything, your post is the one that's stoking any conflict!

I absolutely do not accept that and you have evidently missed the quite deliberate misgendering by one particular poster.

 

[JTG]

Powerful and most articulate. Thank you for posting this. Am so angry and moved at the same time. But can't do it justice like you have.

There's some dishonest and downright evil shit being posted on this thread. Needs to be countered like your sensible and sensitive post.

Honestly surprised you think so but thank you.

A few years ago I knew nothing whatsoever about trans stuff and probably had some very kneejerk attitudes to it. Solved by paying attention and listening to people willing to talk about their own experiences. In the end I didn't know much but I recognise bullies when I see them and I detest bullies

 

[Athos]

Did you miss the drive-by misgendering?

I absolutely do not accept that and you have evidently missed the quite deliberate misgendering by one particular poster.

Apologies, I did miss it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thread discussion was useful when it was about constitutional and political issues. But broader points about trans rights and situations of potentially conflicting rights can't be discussed usefully on here, sadly. We can't even agree on what language to use to discuss it. Lots of posters from all places along the spectrum of opinion now avoid the subject, as I probably should be doing right now.

 

[danny la rouge]

Thread discussion was useful when it was about constitutional and political issues. But broader points about trans rights and situations of potentially conflicting rights can't be discussed usefully on here, sadly. We can't even agree on what language to use to discuss it. Lots of posters from all places along the spectrum of opinion now avoid the subject, as I probably should be doing right now.

Yes, the prison issue really is a separate issue, despite the connection the media have made.

 

[8ball]

Yes, the prison issue really is a separate issue, despite the connection the media have made.

I'm not sure whether maybe saying something in your opening post about the limits of what you wanted the thread to be about (with reference to other threads that people could post on re: ancillary concerns) might have helped.
Defining where the limits of relevance are can be tricky, though. Nicola Sturgeon's standing among Scots and the overall stance of the Scottish people on this and closely related issues is relevant I'd say, but that's where things kicked off and lots of other stuff got brought in.

Threads manage to fly way off topic on way less difficult topics tbf.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not sure whether maybe saying something in your opening post about the limits of what you wanted the thread to be about (with reference to other threads that people could post on re: ancillary concerns) might have helped.

Never works. People discuss what they want to discuss. Which is perfectly natural.

It's an issue with deep anger on both sides, obviously. And it's causing divisions and fallouts everywhere. I've seen it in the anarchist milieu as well as the wider activist milieu.

Outside of here I've been labelled transphobic. I was told on Twitter to go back to Urban75, that hotbed of transphobia. This comment was made by someone in another anarchist organisation. As far as I know that person is not themselves trans. This is quite often the case, in my experience. Those keenest to throw around abuse are posturing to demonstrate their allyship.

However if we as a society cannot engage in discussion about the obviously deep feelings each side has, then we will retreat into ghettoes that will become more and more exclusive in their views in order to maintain their "authenticity". This process can be seen snowballing in different identity settings in our lifetimes.

I don't happen to think there are "bad people" who have taken part in this thread. Even Coop, with whom I have had the biggest disagreement. They (coop) may need to get out more. They (coop) may be monomaniacal. They (coop) may have gone down a rabbit hole. But we'll all be ensconced in our own warrens unless we can somehow listen to each other.

I don't hold out a great deal of hope. I've seen how this plays out, time and again. But at some point people will need to engage in good faith with each other.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I don't happen to think there are "bad people" who have taken part in this thread.

I do. There's some vicious stuff here. But the posters responsible are pleased with themselves and their work, as always, so what can you do.

There's a lot of reinforcement for it out there to be fair. If you get your model of decency from social cues alone, and don't ever choose any standards for yourself, then you can be pretty fucking nasty and never actually twig that that's what you're doing. Nastiness is easy, decency can be hard work. And everyone has to choose it for themselves. You can lead a horse (or, choosing an equine mammal at random, a pony) to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[Knotted]

Thread discussion was useful when it was about constitutional and political issues. But broader points about trans rights and situations of potentially conflicting rights can't be discussed usefully on here, sadly. We can't even agree on what language to use to discuss it. Lots of posters from all places along the spectrum of opinion now avoid the subject, as I probably should be doing right now.

I'm avoiding saying anything but that study of actual women prisoners with experience of transwomen inmates was useful for the prison side question. They're the one's who are actually silenced in this debate by the system not those who claim to be speaking on their behalf.

Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.

Real cases would be cases that are real. I think I'm justified in thinking that. If you know of any real cases, then name them, is what I am saying. Cases that you might imagine are not real. Devious men trying to infiltrate women's prisons by pretending to be trans have had that opportunity...

www.urban75.net

TRA0113 - Evidence on Transgender Equality

 

[8ball]

I'm avoiding saying anything but that study of actual women prisoners with experience of transwomen inmates was useful for the prison side question. They're the one's who are actually silenced in this debate by the system not those who claim to be speaking on their behalf.

Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.

Real cases would be cases that are real. I think I'm justified in thinking that. If you know of any real cases, then name them, is what I am saying. Cases that you might imagine are not real. Devious men trying to infiltrate women's prisons by pretending to be trans have had that opportunity...

www.urban75.net

TRA0113 - Evidence on Transgender Equality

There are some great suggestions there (such as point 6), but if this was the link you intended to post can you direct us to the part illustrating your point?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's an issue with deep anger on both sides, obviously. And it's causing divisions and fallouts everywhere. I've seen it in the anarchist milieu as well as the wider activist milieu.

It's not just anger. There's also quite a bit of confusion and, well, bewilderment at the terms used and how they are supposed also to apply to those of us who don't necessarily see ourselves in that way - for instance, for one 'side', things like cis, binary, assigned sex.

One problem here, I think, is that we're all (me very much included) a bit mixed up about sex and gender, where one finishes and the other starts and the relationship between the two.

There was once a time when the distinction between gender and sex was important to make so that you did not make the mistake of essentialising gender traits and thus limiting people, in particular women. The word sex would often be used where what was meant was gender and it was important to point this out and correct it. Today, this situation has reversed. You very rarely see the word sex used where what is meant is gender, but you very often see gender used when what is meant is sex. And you see it all over the place, even in scientific articles. It seems we're not very good at keeping the two concepts apart in our heads and tend to choose one default term to use in all circumstances. Where that default term used to be sex, it is now gender - because people are more worried about using the word sex wrongly, I guess, so gender is the safer choice. But whichever one is used as default, losing that distinction has the effect of essentialising gender traits, and that's a point at which angry reactions will appear.

 

[smokedout]

Never works. People discuss what they want to discuss. Which is perfectly natural.

It's an issue with deep anger on both sides, obviously. And it's causing divisions and fallouts everywhere. I've seen it in the anarchist milieu as well as the wider activist milieu.

Outside of here I've been labelled transphobic. I was told on Twitter to go back to Urban75, that hotbed of transphobia. This comment was made by someone in another anarchist organisation. As far as I know that person is not themselves trans. This is quite often the case, in my experience. Those keenest to throw around abuse are posturing to demonstrate their allyship.

However if we as a society cannot engage in discussion about the obviously deep feelings each side has, then we will retreat into ghettoes that will become more and more exclusive in their views in order to maintain their "authenticity". This process can be seen snowballing in different identity settings in our lifetimes.

I don't happen to think there are "bad people" who have taken part in this thread. Even Coop, with whom I have had the biggest disagreement. They (coop) may need to get out more. They (coop) may be monomaniacal. They (coop) may have gone down a rabbit hole. But we'll all be ensconced in our own warrens unless we can somehow listen to each other.

I don't hold out a great deal of hope. I've seen how this plays out, time and again. But at some point people will need to engage in good faith with each other.

I'm not sure I'd call urban a hotbed of transphobia, but it is one of the few sites where you can rock up and call trans posters men without consequence as we've seen on this thread. Even on mumsnet that would get you a strike. It's certainly not a particularly welcoming place for trans people and it's only the fact that these discussions rarely occur that makes it tolerable.

But that in itself reveals a problem. Not aimed at you Danny but the endless trans debate is really taking it's toll on trans people - especially as we're now watching the attempted eradication of trans people from society across the ocean in the knowledge that there are many in the UK who very much want to see the same thing happen here. It's certainly affected my mental health because it never fucking stops and it's impossible to get away from. It's the kind of thing I might once have turned to this community for support with. But that's sadly impossible, I may respond to things but I daren't pro-actively post about it, not in p&p or nobbing or sobbing or even on the LGBTQ support thread, because I know if I do look how this thread - a thread dominated by cis men - has played out.

This has been one of the most brutal media witch hunts, well since the last one, and it's impossible to discuss it without being met by people immediately becoming defensive and hostile, or logic brain men using it as an opportunity to endlessly debate their own personal pet theories, or outright aggresive transphobia or being accused of silencing people simply as a result of disagreeing with them or trying to correct misinformation or give (one person's) trans perspective on the issue. And when trans people are accused of silencing people simply for responding to posts made by people about trans people then I'm not sure how it's possible to engage here on equal terms. Urban is not a very nice place to be trans, it's understandable many trans and queer posters have left and there is a reason it has gained the reputation it has.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not sure I'd call urban a hotbed of transphobia, but it is one of the few sites where you can rock up and call trans posters men without consequence as we've seen on this thread. Even on mumsnet that would get you a strike. It's certainly not a particularly welcoming place for trans people and it's only the fact that these discussions rarely occur that makes it tolerable.

But that in itself reveals a problem. Not aimed at you Danny but the endless trans debate is really taking it's toll on trans people - especially as we're now watching the attempted eradication of trans people from society across the ocean in the knowledge that there are many in the UK who very much want to see the same thing happen here. It's certainly affected my mental health because it never fucking stops and it's impossible to get away from. It's the kind of thing I might once have turned to this community for support with. But that's sadly impossible, I may respond to things but I daren't pro-actively post about it, not in p&p or nobbing or sobbing or even on the LGBTQ support thread, because I know if I do, because look how this thread - a thread dominated by cis men - has played out.

This has been one of the most brutal media witch hunts, well since the last one, and it's impossible to discuss it without being met by people immediately becoming defensive and hostile, or logic brain men using it as an opportunity to endlessly debate their own personal pet theories, or outright aggresive transphobia or being accused of silencing people simply as a result of disagreeing with them or trying to correct misinformation or give (one person's) trans perspective on the issue. And when trans people are accused of silencing people simply for responding to posts made by people about trans people then I'm not sure how it's possible to engage here on equal terms. Urban is not a very nice place to be trans, it's understandable many trans and queer posters have left and there is a reason it has gained the reputation it has.

frankly there's been an utter refusal to mod these threads that wouldn't be allowed if we were talking about misogyny or race or class or even the most anodyne forms of music