Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.

[smokedout]

The British Psychological Society gave evidence to say that it has happened (I linked to it at near top of the page).

Conversely, psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:

• As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;
• As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);
• Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female).
• In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.

What were the circumstances of these cases? Did they transition, were they in prison, did they just go haha I'm trans or apply to prison authorities to have their gender marker changed? What does in 'a number of cases' mean ... 2, 3, 300? How 'rare' are those cases where 'it has been thought' (by who) that people were claiming to be trans to seek better access to females? Which psychologists and which patients? Where is the published evidence supporting this? How did they ascertain they were 'falsely' claiming to be trans? It's a big claim, but the details, and therefore evidence are scant.

I don't think it is possible to ascertain that someone is falsely claiming to be trans and it comes as no surprise that this submission was written by the head of Charing Cross GIC whose model has long been to gatekeep access to medical transition by deciding that someone's self-identified trans status is inauthentic.

It is a depressing and enduring feature of this debate that cis people will come up with all kinds of (unevidenced) theories in an attempt to explain away the apparantly uncomfortable truth that trans people's experiences of sex and gender are real and a naturally occurring part of human diversity. It's happened on this thread. It's just an obsession with gender stereotypes, or a fetish, or confused gays, or a mental illness, or childhood trauma, or social contagion, or porn induced, or escaping misogyny or a sneaky attempt to access spaces they don't belong in and so on forever.

Psychologists and psychiatrists are not immune to this, in fact they are often the worst offenders, especially those who work with trans people and have an agenda to prove their own pet theories correct. And yet despite all this almost all the actual published evidence, whether from studying trans people directly, gender identity in intersex kids or biological and genetic influences points to sex/gender identities being real, authentic, probably inborn in most cases and pretty much as trans people describe them.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

I think I'd take the case-by-case approach to trans women convicted of non-sex offences; I'd not be too bothered by the idea that trans women sex offenders - as a class - should be excluded from women's prisons (in the same way that men are excluded as a class), as long as that doesn't mean they're at risk in men's prisons; they need to be kept safe, too.

There was a story recently, in the news, about a trans woman who has been raped 2000 times after being jailed in a men's prison for stealing a car. I guess she got what's coming to her, according to most of the media and the transphobic mob. Funny that the outrage about women being raped only applies when its a cis woman being raped by an alleged trans prisoner. I think that tells you a lot about those people's real motivations.

 

[Athos]

I thought we already decided this prison stuff is completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

It's irrelevant to the title of the thread, but has become a topic of discussion on it.

 

[Athos]

There was a story recently, in the news, about a trans woman who has been raped 2000 times after being jailed in a men's prison for stealing a car. I guess she got what's coming to her, according to most of the media and the transphobic mob. Funny that the outrage about women being raped only applies when its a cis woman being raped by an alleged trans prisoner. I think that tells you a lot about those people's real motivations.

I've no doubt that they're are some bigots who don't care about that , or, worse, are pleased about it.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Is this because, in your opinion, if any person felt a really strong visceral hatred for the gender stereotypes they've been dealt by birth, in whatever culture they live in, if a person felt really strongly how wrong they are & how they do not wish to or can't conform to them then they'd as a result be a trans person and not a cis person?

No - not at all. Wow - how did you come up with that convoluted garbage?

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

I've no doubt that they're are some bigots who don't care about that , or, worse, are pleased about it.

Everyone currently engaged in media attacks on trans people (including social media) - I've seen no exceptions. If not then I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Athos]

What were the circumstances of these cases? Did they transition, were they in prison, did they just go haha I'm trans or apply to prison authorities to have their gender marker changed? What does in 'a number of cases' mean ... 2, 3, 300? How 'rare' are those cases where 'it has been thought' (by who) that people were claiming to be trans to seek better access to females? Which psychologists and which patients? Where is the published evidence supporting this? How did they ascertain they were 'falsely' claiming to be trans? It's a big claim, but the details, and therefore evidence are scant.

I don't think it is possible to ascertain that someone is falsely claiming to be trans and it comes as no surprise that this submission was written by the head of Charing Cross GIC whose model has long been to gatekeep access to medical transition by deciding that someone's self-identified trans status is inauthentic.

It is a depressing and enduring feature of this debate that cis people will come up with all kinds of (unevidenced) theories in an attempt to explain away the apparantly uncomfortable truth that trans people's experiences of sex and gender are real and a naturally occurring part of human diversity. It's happened on this thread. It's just an obsession with gender stereotypes, or a fetish, or confused gays, or a mental illness, or childhood trauma, or social contagion, or porn induced, or escaping misogyny or a sneaky attempt to access spaces they don't belong in.

Psychologists and psychiatrists are not immune to this, in fact they are often the worst offenders, especially those who work with trans people and have an agenda to prove their own pet theories correct. And yet despite all this almost all the actual published evidence, whether from studying trans people directly, gender identity in intersex kids or biological and genetic influences points to sex/gender identities being real, authentic, probably inborn in most cases and pretty much as trans people describe them.

These may or may not be good points. I don't know what the BPS know, or whether or not they are right in what they say. My point was that your claim that there is no evidence isn't accurate - they explicitly gave evidence on that very point.

 

[smokedout]

These may or may not be good points. I don't know what the BPS know, or whether or not they are right in what they say. My point was that your claim that there is no evidence isn't accurate - they explicitly gave evidence on that very point.

By evidence I meant a documented case of it happening, not second hand vague anecdotes from unnamed clinicians.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Agree it makes logical sense, it’s just not how I’ve seen the words used. The one non-binary person I know considers themself under the trans umbrella.

And cis is everyone else where there is no sex/gender conflict, regardless of subjective sense of gender identity being present or absent.

All of this may be in flux or vary among individuals obv.

And the thing that the anti trans campaigners keep trying to throw out there is that trans people (or more accurately TRAs) will claim any person who doesn't wish to present as what they call a gender stereotype. Which is utter nonsense. Essentially it boils down to whether you're happy to call yourself a man or a woman - regardless of how you present. I've seen trans women across the presentation spectrum from dungarees, jeans, men's suits right through to extremely feminine, in flowery dresses, etc. (And for myself I tend to dress towards the masculine end of female dress - not that keen on skirts tbh.)

 

[bimble]

Posting on this thread was me breaking a several years successful effort to not ever engage with anything on this whole subject, apart from occasionally if it comes up from them when speaking to people irl. I feel a bit like I fell off the wagon or ate a McDonald’s after not doing that for years. Back on the wagon now, out, same as weepiper. The gender split on the thread is not great is it even for urban, probably a coincidence.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

It's irrelevant to the title of the thread, but has become a topic of discussion on it.

I hope its OK then to keep reminding people that it is actually irrelevant because that too is a way that the anti trans groups are trying to manipulate public opinion. And that may not have mattered so much up till the point where the UK government decided to join in with the same bogus claims.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Posting on this thread was me breaking a several years successful effort to not ever engage with anything on this whole subject, apart from occasionally if it comes up from them when speaking to people irl. I feel a bit like I fell off the wagon or ate a McDonald’s after not doing that for years. Back on the wagon now, out, same as weepiper. The gender split on the thread is not great is it even for urban, probably a coincidence.

Well if you don't see people like me as women then yeah - the gender split will be skewed in your eyes. You may not like it but this affects people like me way more than it could ever affect people like you so I don't understand why you think you have a god given right to blunder in to such discussions, make whatever terrible point you feel you have to make, and not be criticised by those of us that are really affected by this issue.

Maybe if you came to the discussion with some honesty and some humanity (and humility? ) you might not end up feeling so driven out all the time. Just a thought.

 

[Athos]

By evidence I meant a documented case of it happening, not second hand vague anecdotes from unnamed clinicians.

That's a bit of a stretch. It was a formal submission by a professional body, that referred to the direct experiences of its members.

BUt, by your narrow definition of 'evidence', you might be right; I'm unaware of any such information.

 

[Athos]

I hope its OK then to keep reminding people that it is actually irrelevant because that too is a way that the anti trans groups are trying to manipulate public opinion. And that may not have mattered so much up till the point where the UK government decided to join in with the same bogus claims.

Of course. I've made that point a few times myself, even going as far as to call it a "red herring".

 

[JTG]

I hope its OK then to keep reminding people that it is actually irrelevant because that too is a way that the anti trans groups are trying to manipulate public opinion. And that may not have mattered so much up till the point where the UK government decided to join in with the same bogus claims.

Absolutely. And it was first raised on the thread by the person who used the most overtly transphobic language with perfectly transparent motives. Once that had been done, easy enough for others to run with the baton and distract from what is essentially a very boring piece of administrative legislation that has had zero negative impact in the many other countries in which it has been implemented

 

[trashpony]

You have now chased all the cunty women off this thread.

If that doesn’t tell you something, I don’t know what will. Slow hand clap for all the men of urban who have been part of that - however you identify.

 

[PursuedByBears]

You have now chased all the cunty women off this thread.

If that doesn’t tell you something, I don’t know what will. Slow hand clap for all the men of urban who have been part of that - however you identify.

Same thing happens every single time there's a thread on the subject, isn't that strange?

 

[smokedout]

Same thing happens every single time there's a thread on the subject, isn't that strange?

Almost as if the 2 or 3 gender critical posters on here can't abide being in a space where trans people get to talk about issues which affect them directly.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

You have now chased all the cunty women off this thread.

If that doesn’t tell you something, I don’t know what will. Slow hand clap for all the men of urban who have been part of that - however you identify.

I'm sorry that you melt, or something, just for being disagreed with. Never mind.

Also - I'm not a man. So cut that out now.

 

[Leighsw2]

You have now chased all the cunty women off this thread.

If that doesn’t tell you something, I don’t know what will. Slow hand clap for all the men of urban who have been part of that - however you identify.

Sorry snowflake, the 'cis sisters of Anita Bryant' can just totally fuck off.

 

[krtek a houby]

Almost as if the 2 or 3 gender critical posters on here can't abide being in a space where trans people get to talk about issues which affect them directly.

Aye.

Some very dishonest posters chiming in. They know who they are.

That said, it's still mild compared to the terrifying narrative pushed on social media and from politicians in various countries, not just the UK.

No that we should be in any way complacent here.

Sunak's government is cynically pandering to the bigots and trying to fuck with Scottish affairs.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Real cases would be cases that are real. I think I'm justified in thinking that. If you know of any real cases, then name them, is what I am saying.

Cases that you might imagine are not real.

Devious men trying to infiltrate women's prisons by pretending to be trans have had that opportunity for at least a couple of decades. But is there a documented case of it happening? Or is it possibly not actually a real thing?

As Nicola Sturgeon has pointed out, prison placements in Scotland are done on a case-by-case basis and there is no automatic right for trans women to be placed in a women's prison.

But why let mere information get in the way of a good teeth-gnashing session for those here who, it seems, are no longer even pretending not to be outright bigots.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

There's something deeply unpleasant about the way cis women are being silenced on this thread.

 

[cesare]

There's something deeply unpleasant about the way cis women are being silenced on this thread.

If that's the case, it must have started somewhere. Which silenced post originated the ongoing silencing, do you think?

 

[mojo pixy]

Choosing not to engage is not 'being silenced'.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Choosing not to engage is not 'being silenced'.

It kind of is.

 

[mojo pixy]

If it is, it's self-silencing. I do it all the time because my mental health can't handle a row, but I don't feel 'silenced'. I just .. back away. That's on me, not other people.

 

[Santino]

If it is, it's self-silencing. I do it all the time because my mental health can't handle a row, but I don't feel 'silenced'. I just .. back away. That's on me, not other people.

Yeah, that's the same. It's exactly the same.

 

[mojo pixy]

 

[Pickman's model]

You have now chased all the cunty women off this thread.

If that doesn’t tell you something, I don’t know what will. Slow hand clap for all the men of urban who have been part of that - however you identify.

5 hours doesn't seem to me long enough to conclude anything of the sort