2016 Holyrood Election Thread: polling, coverage, issues.

[DexterTCN]

Farily brutal analysis of RISE's disaster last week (Bella Caledonia)

The comments section is no less charitable. I'll be surprised if RISE is still around come the end of the summer.

Do you think that will carry over anywhere else?

 

[steeplejack]

to Solidarity, you mean?

Gail Sheridan was on record saying that Tommy's political career was finished if he failed to be elected on the Glasgow list- and even without the scandals and defections from the party in the run up to the polls he'd have got nowhere near.

suspect he's finished in terms of party politics, and Solidarity will either become defunct, or like the Communist Party of Scotland- existing on paper but not actually doing anything.

If there's another indyref Sheridan I am sure will play his part but I think that's it for him in terms of professional politics.

 

[DexterTCN]

No. Not what I meant.

Indy supporters put their hands in their pockets and give to sites and people that represent the movement.

Strong feelings of betrayal have grown during the recent election. I think Rise will only be the first casualty. Few will want to support some sites with the same largesse.

 

[DexterTCN]

As if by magic...bella starts its funding campaign.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/backing-bella-caledonia-2016#/

bella were widely seen as stabbing the indy campaign in the back...playing party politics, claiming to be the voice of the working class It will be interesting to see how this campaign goes. I'll be impressed if they make 10% above their asking price, unshocked if they don't make it (without a lot of £500 donations).

 

[weepiper]

'Widely'

 

[danny la rouge]

So Bella has been denounced as outside the orthodoxy has it? Presumably because it published some articles saying boring SNP 1 Green 2 was a good idea. Apparently (pretty mild) heterodoxy doesn't deserve a voice. That's a very worrying trend.

I'm not a great fan of Bella, but I may chuck them a few quid now exactly because somebody needs to voice questions. If all alternative media is slavishly fanboyish, we're in trouble.

 

[danny la rouge]

Whether you agree with everything Bella publishes or not (and I don't) there's a value to this stuff being discussed.

Bella Caledonia independence – self-determination – autonomy

That ^ contains several things I don't agree with, but it's hardly "stabbing the Indy movement on the back".

 

[butchersapron]

As if by magic...bella starts its funding campaign.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/backing-bella-caledonia-2016#/

bella were widely seen as stabbing the indy campaign in the back...playing party politics, claiming to be the voice of the working class It will be interesting to see how this campaign goes. I'll be impressed if they make 10% above their asking price, unshocked if they don't make it (without a lot of £500 donations).

Your Scotland is sounding well horrible.

 

[Alan G]

Is ridiculing and attacking anyone who doesn't advocate #BothVotesSNP "playing party politics", or just when people disagree with the SNP party line?

 

[DexterTCN]

Is ridiculing and attacking anyone who doesn't advocate #BothVotesSNP "playing party politics", or just when people disagree with the SNP party line?

Who mentioned the SNP?

I was talking about people who are willing to canvass, to march, to engage and to put their hands in their pockets to fund sites and buy little books and pay for foodbanks and fines and wear badges. But they also boycott (seen any newspapers sales figures recently?). It's a right, I'm sure a lot of people on urban boycott things. I wasn't saying that people would or should boycott bella, I was only proposing that a couple of sites might be shitting their pants and that it would be interesting to see what developed.

The SNP have nothing to do with it.

See...you're still avoiding what is actually happening.

We should wait and see how bella does in its fund-raiser. I think it will do well but I don't think it will hit the £50k target, that requires wider support than I feel they have after the heat of the election campaign.

 

[murphy1970]

There is a very intolerant attitude amongst some SNP supporters. It became noticeable with the twitter attacks on Bella and Common Space who had the audacity to suggest that giving both votes to the SNP might be a tactical mistake.
I have a feeling the next couple of years are going to be very interesting in Scottish politics. The harsh reality is that the SNP's main opposition, due to the vicissitudes of the Holyrood system, are the Tories and I can only see this pushing the SNP in a right wing direction.
What will be interesting to see is how the many folk who are clearly left of centre SNP voters react to the tough choices the SNP administration will face

 

[DexterTCN]

Well..they've been in government for what? 9 years? There vote went up to the highest ever, didn't it? Supporters would seem happy enough just now.

As for intolerant attitudes...sorry you're deluded mate. You check the posts in the other threads and you'll find all the intolerance you can handle. Show me any 'attacks' against bella or cs that were as hateful as the ones on the wings thread. You're not seeing what indy-supporters are seeing, or maybe you are but just through your own particularly shaded glasses.

And it's not SNP supporters, it's supporters of independence, get it?

 

[danny la rouge]

as hateful as the ones on the wings thread.

Yup, those nasty people who don't like transphobia, misogyny or anti-working class bigotry. They should really be more tolerant towards the wee bigot and his reactionary impulses.

 

[The Boy]

Yup, those nasty people who don't like transphobia, misogyny or anti-working class bigotry. They should really be more tolerant towards the wee bigot and his reactionary impulses.

Who are the real bigots, eh?

 

[danny la rouge]

Who are the real bigots, eh?

First they came for the bigots...

 

[DexterTCN]

Who are the real bigots, eh?

Apparently...they inhabit a website.

I proposed a situation in regards to some websites. You, and the usual, are basically trying to bring the discussion down to the level of shit.

Do you have anything to say on what I said instead of your nonsense about bigots?

Where will bella and cs go next?

 

[danny la rouge]

Here's the kind of paranoia that is dragging Scottish political discourse into the mire:




So, Chris Darroch presumably thinks that Angela Haggerty, a journalist, should not report that kind of thing. That Common Space should not carry such open letters.

What should they do then? Carry nothing at all except pieces approved and vetted by Chris Darroch? Healthy.

(And no, I'm not a fan of Compass or a supporter of Labour, but to insult Angela Haggerty and Common Space for giving space to those views displays disturbingly totalitarian tendencies).

 

[DexterTCN]

That's the letter by gordon brown's ex-speech-writer suggesting that the snp join forces with labour to attack the tories, get rid of trident and save the unions, yeah? And stay in the UK? Build a fairer society....with labour.

'demand to be part of the Labour inspired constitutional convention'

'So my thought is this: it can’t be independence or nothing, it has to be how we create the conditions in which people can collectively build a good society; they might end up with an independent Scotland, but this, and only this, must be the purpose of our journey.'

He's a master salesman alright.

mr malky has a well thought out response

Mr Malky's Blog: How late it was, how late - An open letter to Neal Lawson at Compass

 

[danny la rouge]

That's the letter by gordon brown's ex-speech-writer suggesting that the snp join forces with labour to attack the tories, get rid of trident and save the unions, yeah? And stay in the UK? Build a fairer society....with labour.

You're right to be dismissive of the content of the letter, and of the idea that Labour is a progressive force.

However, the point I was making was that some people are suggesting that in carrying the letter Common Space - rather than just the letter's author, Neal Lawson - have the intention of resurrecting the Labour Party in Scotland. It's an attitude that seems to want alternative media to only carry pieces that reflect one viewpoint.

I have no idea whether Angela Haggerty or Common Space as a whole agree with the contents of Lawson's letter, but she can't agree with everything they carry, since many of the opinion pieces disagree with each other. That's the point of carrying such content: so readers can read various viewpoints.

One might find something ridiculous but still think it worth bringing to people's attention exactly because one finds it ridiculous.

However, the sort of tweet that I provided an example of, where people are criticising Angela Haggerty for publishing this sort of content, would seem to want an alternative media where only one viewpoint is aired. And that's quite a different thing from disagreeing with the content of an article.

 

[DexterTCN]

No danny the point you were making was that people disagreeing with that article were paranoid and dragging politics into the mire. (without mentioning that the article was hilariously bad)

Then told us what Darroch was thinking. (not sure how)

And arrived at totalitarian tendencies amongst indy voters. (not sure how)

Doesn't really bring anything, does it? It's just numerology to harden your already deep-held conviction of an immoral anti working class movement.

The article and the reasons behind it do follow on from what I said though.

 

[danny la rouge]

No danny the point you were making was that people disagreeing with that article were paranoid and dragging politics into the mire. (without mentioning that the article was hilariously bad)

Since I also said that I was no fan of Compass or Labour, then that would mean I was accusing myself of being paranoid and dragging politics into the mire. So, once again you've got that wrong.

Then told us what Darroch was thinking. (not sure how)

That's amusing since you've just told me what I'm thinking. And got it wrong. Again.

The reason I know what Darroch means by his tweet is that he says so. He says that Haggerty is "delivering the fertiliser". He says "trust Haggerty to deliver the fertiliser". In other words, "it's just like her to publish this sort of stuff". His meaning is quite clear. He's not just disagreeing with the content of the letter, he's criticising Haggerty for publishing it at all.

 

[DexterTCN]

No danny the point you were making was that people disagreeing with that article were paranoid and dragging politics into the mire...

Since I also said that I was no fan of Compass or Labour, then that would mean I was accusing myself of being paranoid and dragging politics into the mire. So, once again you've got that wrong...

Here's the kind of paranoia that is dragging Scottish political discourse into the mire...

Someone said it, certainly looks like it was you. But you say you didn't say it. meh

 

[The Boy]

Christ. If this is what the brave new world was going to look like, then I'm glad we lost.

 

[danny la rouge]

Someone said it, certainly looks like it was you. But you say you didn't say it. meh

Oh. My. God.

 

[butchersapron]

I must say it's very thoughtful of dexter to demonstrate for us all why nationalists make the worst socialists and socialists the worst nationalists. Once more.

 

[DexterTCN]

Christ. If this is what the brave new world was going to look like, then I'm glad we lost.

Never doubted that for a second.

 

[DexterTCN]

So...if it's possible that we could move on from the mire...bella will be lucky to see 45% of the funding it asked for, cs does not seem to publish figures but I doubt the picture is much better. (google was my only friend for cs, I can stand to be corrected and I hope they get the funding to continue, which they probably will but I've no figures)

Bella will not fold. £20k is certainly enough to run a website. But last year bella got £53k from crowd-funding, this year it'll see £24k max...a huge drop. In context wings has had about £350k funding in the last 3 years and got double it's crowdfunding request this year, £40k requested and £80k plus donated.

These sites are funded, in the vast majority, by the middle class, working and poor people of Scotland.

Now the thing is...bella does more 'perceived' scottishness than wings or other relevant sites. Language, history, interviews. Tartan and heather are prominent. The politics lean left, as they should up here. (There are no pro-indy right-leaning sites.) But bella is the most scottish in certain senses.

Why aren't they getting the funding the got last year?

 

[danny la rouge]

Why aren't they getting the funding the got last year?

Perhaps because a lot of SNP supporters think that because Bella isn't simply parroting SNP party lines, but actually discussing stuff, that they are therefore an anti-SNP pro-Labour cover.

 

[butchersapron]

So...if it's possible that we could move on from the mire...bella will be lucky to see 45% of the funding it asked for, cs does not seem to publish figures but I doubt the picture is much better. (google was my only friend for cs, I can stand to be corrected and I hope they get the funding to continue, which they probably will but I've no figures)

Bella will not fold. £20k is certainly enough to run a website. But last year bella got £53k from crowd-funding, this year it'll see £24k max...a huge drop. In context wings has had about £350k funding in the last 3 years and got double it's crowdfunding request this year, £40k requested and £80k plus donated.

These sites are funded, in the vast majority, by the middle class, working and poor people of Scotland.

Now the thing is...bella does more 'perceived' scottishness than wings or other relevant sites. Language, history, interviews. Tartan and heather are prominent. The politics lean left, as they should up here. (There are no pro-indy right-leaning sites.) But bella is the most scottish in certain senses.

Why aren't they getting the funding the got last year?

Can you show were you saw the breakdown of their funding make up please?

 

[butchersapron]

What an exceedingly odd and transparent post btw