Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
is there an inner house?
Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I don’t have those zingers on my mental spreadsheet of posters’ opinions, so I am willing to stand corrected. But it just came across as word play to me.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Yes, there is.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I don't think I've expressed these "transphobic views" on this thread, just made the point that NS has blundered into a battle with Westminster where she is on unpopular ground and that's stupid of her. I see she spent half her press conference today trying to put the Isla Bryson case away and didn't manage it - and despite the wishful thinking of some posters, that's directly relevant to the political impact that will build around the s.35 case.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
It's not just Isla Bryson either, there's also Katie Dolatowski, who sexually assaulted a primary age girl in supermarket toilets and covertly filmed a 12 year old girl using a public toilet, and later got put in Cornton Vale (women's prison) to serve a sentence for assaulting another prisoner while held in a male young offenders institute Prison service criticised for moving trans woman to Cornton Vale
And Tiffany Scott, who applied for a transfer to Cornton Vale after being sentenced to indefinite detention after stalking a 13 year old girl from prison
This is an issue which is very live in the press here.
And Tiffany Scott, who applied for a transfer to Cornton Vale after being sentenced to indefinite detention after stalking a 13 year old girl from prison
Tiffany Scott: Call to block trans prisoner's move to women's jail
It is understood that Tiffany Scott - previously Andrew Burns - has applied for a transfer.
www.bbc.co.uk
This is an issue which is very live in the press here.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
None of which has happened under the proposed bill, which has not come into force.It's not just Isla Bryson either, there's also Katie Dolatowski, who sexually assaulted a primary age girl in supermarket toilets and covertly filmed a 12 year old girl using a public toilet, and later got put in Cornton Vale (women's prison) to serve a sentence for assaulting another prisoner while held in a male young offenders institute Prison service criticised for moving trans woman to Cornton Vale
And Tiffany Scott, who applied for a transfer to Cornton Vale after being sentenced to indefinite detention after stalking a 13 year old girl from prison
Tiffany Scott: Call to block trans prisoner's move to women's jail
It is understood that Tiffany Scott - previously Andrew Burns - has applied for a transfer.www.bbc.co.uk
This is an issue which is very live in the press here.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
I actually don't think this story is about the bill now.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Are you saying 'these people are representative of trans women'?It's not just Isla Bryson either, there's also Katie Dolatowski, who sexually assaulted a primary age girl in supermarket toilets and covertly filmed a 12 year old girl using a public toilet, and later got put in Cornton Vale (women's prison) to serve a sentence for assaulting another prisoner while held in a male young offenders institute Prison service criticised for moving trans woman to Cornton Vale
And Tiffany Scott, who applied for a transfer to Cornton Vale after being sentenced to indefinite detention after stalking a 13 year old girl from prison
Tiffany Scott: Call to block trans prisoner's move to women's jail
It is understood that Tiffany Scott - previously Andrew Burns - has applied for a transfer.www.bbc.co.uk
This is an issue which is very live in the press here.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
No. I'm saying these particular three people shouldn't be in a women's prison. And if I'm wrong about that and they should be, then I don't understand what the point of separate women's prisons is.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
That seems like quite an extreme extrapolation.
None of them are in a woman's prison.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Katie Dolatowski and Isla Bryson were. Dolatowski was on remand there and then failed to turn up for sentencing after being released.
Bryson was held in isolation for a weekend whilst being assessed and then moved to a male prison. According to the BBC she is believed to be the first trans woman ever convicted of rape in Scotland so this does not reflect a widespread problem. News reports say that Dolatowski had her sentence deferred until March 16 and is currently under statutory supervision having been warned by the Judge if she breaks those conditions she will be back in jail. Should that happen it seems unlikely she will be housed in the female estate given recent events.
To add some balance to this, in the most recent year in England and Wales that the MOJ has deigned to release figures 11 transgender prisoners were sexually assaulted in the male estate. There were 129 trans prisoners in the male estate during this period meaning almost 1 in 10 faced sexual assault in just one year. To put that in context, rates of sexual assaults for cis prisoners are pretty similar across both estates at about 1 in 300. To those who believe some of the decisions made recently are based on ideology or validating trans identities they are not. Trans women are not safe in men's prisons.
That doesn't mean I think, or anyone really thinks, that all trans women should be housed in the female estate without question or assessment. I don't think Bryson should be in a woman's prison unless she is isolated and most trans people seem to agree. But there is clearly a problem here and this might be a more temperate debate if Gender Critical people acknowledged that instead of you know, laughing about trans women being raped in prisons.
That doesn't mean I think, or anyone really thinks, that all trans women should be housed in the female estate without question or assessment. I don't think Bryson should be in a woman's prison unless she is isolated and most trans people seem to agree. But there is clearly a problem here and this might be a more temperate debate if Gender Critical people acknowledged that instead of you know, laughing about trans women being raped in prisons.
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smokedout, posting YouTube videos like that one and suggesting that laughing about people being raped is what 'gender critical' people do (in general) doesn't help make the debate around this more temperate. I'm sure no-one here would laugh at or about anyone being raped and would agree that doing so is utterly disgusting.
Linehan is one of the most high profile Gender Critical activists and I've yet to see any of his many gender critical supporters calling him utterly disgusting following that video. And it's hardly the first time he's been wildly offensive and he's hardly the only one. What are trans people supposed to make of a movement when behaviour like that from the most prominent members is not just condoned but lauded? How can we trust that any discussion is in good faith when it is barely even acknowledged that there is a serious problem with trans women being sexually assaulted in prisons and people like him behave like that without challenge or condemnation?
I'm not accusing anyone here of that kind of behaviour and I hope all would condemn it. But I'm not going to apologise for showing how this debate on prisons is being played out and what that reveals about some of those involved. If a prominent trans women laughed about women being raped in prisons she would never be given a platform again and rightly so. In fact she would be berated across all of the national press and trans people would be expected to condemn it and apologise for it for the next decade. And we would. Every trans person I've ever talked to about this cares very deeply about women's safety in prisons but honestly it feels like when trans women are raped or sexually assaulted it's generally viewed as not much of a big deal or at worst a big joke. I posted that video to highlight that.
Yep, me too.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is where thus stuff becomes confused and confusing. She is a rapist? No, he is a rapist. Words start to lose their meaning here.
Language has always evolved, that doesn't mean words are losing their meaning. It is now commonplace that those who identify as women are referred to as she, and those as men he. Pronouns are not honorifics that people can be stripped of due to bad behaviour, they merely indicate someone's gender.
It would be easy to dismiss Bryson and claim he's a man and not really trans. But being trans is not some sacred status which people have to earn it's simply something they are, and that means as with all groups of people there will be some who do awful things.
And personally I couldn't give a fuck about Bryson and don't really care how anyone refers to her. But trans people will only achieve any kind of liberation when trans identities are recognised as real, just like sexualty is, and not merely granted by others on a conditional basis. From the perspective that trans people exist as an authentic part of human diversity and their identities are real and worthy of respect then it makes no linguistic sense to misgender trans people because they've done something bad or even aborrant as in this case.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
That’s a very honest tack to be taking (other tacks are available, as evinced by media fretting over the last short while).
While there are certain difficult potential
conversations that follow fairly directly from your point, there is also the thorny matter of cases that are nothing to do with transgender people, but involve predatory men who have committed sexual assault, been caught, and fancy that they would have an easier time of things in a women’s prison.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
By "thorny", do you mean "imaginary"?
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Right, so either no predatory men would ever do such a thing, perhaps because sexual predators are never highly devious in your world, or being transgender is defined by the making of a public claim.
It’s a start, I suppose.
If an astonishingly transphobic one.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Ok, so can you give me a list of these thorny cases that are in no way imaginary?
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
I was talking about the case in terms of argumentation, not particular real life cases.
It doesn’t matter, though, since you’ve already set things up in such a way that any real case could be dispelled in a puff of linguistics.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Hard to tell how the real cases could be dispelled if they are not actually real. Possibly by pointing out that they are not real, but who knows?
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Right, so the real cases you mention in your first sentence are not real by the second one.
For a minute I thought you were going to say something completely incoherent.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Real cases would be cases that are real. I think I'm justified in thinking that. If you know of any real cases, then name them, is what I am saying.
Cases that you might imagine are not real.
Devious men trying to infiltrate women's prisons by pretending to be trans have had that opportunity for at least a couple of decades. But is there a documented case of it happening? Or is it possibly not actually a real thing?
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