Westminster to use constitutional tool to block Holyrood gender recognition law.

[Athos]

I've got friends who are gender critical and it's pretty uncomfortable for all parties navigating all that. But none of them would get away with some of the shit that gets said on these threads.

I don't really know what else to say - several trans posters who make incredibly insightful contributions to these boards (and not just on trans issues - far from it) have said that they don't feel able to post here about their lives and experiences. That should be enough to make people have a word with themselves, surely?

Several posters who aren't trans have said similar/left over this issue. Clearly how things happen currently isn't perfect. But what, specifically, should be done differently?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Several posters who aren't trans have said similar/left over this issue. Clearly how things happen currently isn't perfect. But what, specifically, should be done differently?

Well your honour, I think a good start would be more of a focus on empathy and less of a focus on demanding specific legalistic solutions by brilliant Mr Logic types who delight in hostile interactions.

 

[Sweet FA]

But what, specifically, should be done differently?

Mod it properly/at all. Thread bans for deliberate misgendering etc. There are less confrontational ways of discussing this without being shithouse to each other. As others have said; race; gender; sexual prefs; age are all dealt with very differently.

 

[iona]

So what's actually happening with this now? The latest I could see from a quick scan through the first page of google results was that the SNP are going to challenge the Section 35 thing by... doing something, at some point?

 

[8ball]

So what's actually happening with this now? The latest I could see from a quick scan through the first page of google results was that the SNP are going to challenge the Section 35 thing by... doing something, at some point?

General bust-up between Tories and SNP/Sturgeon continues to the background of an ongoing media fuckfest afaik.

 

[geminisnake]

Whilst I'd love to see the Tories get a bloody nose in this battle, independence for Scotland would probably condemn England to perpetual Tory government!

Sorry but very much not our fault, only the English can sort English problems. The Scottish vote does NOT affect Westminster in any valid way unless it's a close run thing. We only have 55ish Mps out 550. Even when we had 97% SNP MPs it didn;t make a shit of difference.

 

[belboid]

It's bullshit about the 'perpetual tory government' anyway. I think Labour has relied upon Scotland once for its majority, maybe twice. (etc: 64 & feb 74, both tied)

 

[steeplejack]

So what's actually happening with this now? The latest I could see from a quick scan through the first page of google results was that the SNP are going to challenge the Section 35 thing by... doing something, at some point?

The SNP are calling a judicial review of the UK government's invoking of an s.35 order on this issue with uncertain consequences.

Trans people whose lives had been improved by said Scottish legislation left in limbo as a result as it suits an extreme-right UK government to stoke a culture war, fear and division.

Separate to your question, what an embarrassing disgrace this thread became in the last few pages- thanks to Fozzie Bear 's recent contributions for calling for a pause / reflect.

 

[Athos]

Mod it properly/at all. Thread bans for deliberate misgendering etc. There are less confrontational ways of discussing this without being shithouse to each other. As others have said; race; gender; sexual prefs; age are all dealt with very differently.

Sounds sensible.

 

[Athos]

Well your honour, I think a good start would be more of a focus on empathy and less of a focus on demanding specific legalistic solutions by brilliant Mr Logic types who delight in hostile interactions.

Experience suggests hoping for more empathy doesn't work. I think it'll take something more formal; that mods will have to get involved. The difficulty will be in finding a consensus around when and how.

 

[smokedout]

Sorry but very much not our fault, only the English can sort English problems. The Scottish vote does NOT affect Westminster in any valid way unless it's a close run thing. We only have 55ish Mps out 550. Even when we had 97% SNP MPs it didn;t make a shit of difference.

That's kind of the point really. English voters have inflicted a Tory government on a reluctant Scotland time and time again. Scottish people are under no obligation to remain attached to the UK just because the English electorate can't get our shit together and stop voting the bastards in.

 

[Athos]

what an embarrassing disgrace this thread became in the last few pages- thanks to Fozzie Bear 's recent contributions

Bit harsh on Fozzie Bear.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Mod it properly/at all. Thread bans for deliberate misgendering etc. There are less confrontational ways of discussing this without being shithouse to each other. As others have said; race; gender; sexual prefs; age are all dealt with very differently.

In the past people have had warnings or temp bans for posting pisstake versions of other user’s usernames. Deliberate misgendering seems at least on a par with that.

 

[Athos]

In the past people have had warnings or temp bans for posting pisstake versions of other user’s usernames. Deliberate misgendering seems at least on a par with that.

This sort of thing is all as I was getting at earlier, when you accused me of "demanding legalistic solutions." Just some clear examples - not necessarily an exhaustive list - of what's not acceptable (and the consequences), and enforcement of the same. (Alongside, rather than instead of, the appeals to empathy.)

 

[danny la rouge]

In the past people have had warnings or temp bans for posting pisstake versions of other user’s usernames. Deliberate misgendering seems at least on a par with that.

Yeah, good one, Fuzzy Beard.

 

[redsquirrel]

In the past people have had warnings or temp bans for posting pisstake versions of other user’s usernames. Deliberate misgendering seems at least on a par with that.

Agreed.

There are posters who despite disagreeing with them quite strongly on trans issues I would not want to see banned.
But deliberate misgendering is completely out of order - if it happened at a workplace someone could find themselves in some serious trouble. I think most of use want U75 to be ahead of bosses.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

This sort of thing is all as I was getting at earlier, when you accused me of "demanding legalistic solutions." Just some clear examples - not necessarily an exhaustive list - of what's not acceptable (and the consequences), and enforcement of the same. (Alongside, rather than instead of, the appeals to empathy.)

OK. But you had just had several pages of back and forth nitpicking when I said that, and I don't think it is ungenerous of me to suggest that this was not the first time?

 

[Athos]

OK. But you had just had several pages of back and forth nitpicking when I said that, and I don't think it is ungenerous of me to suggest that this was not the first time?

No, that's probably fair.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Agreed.

There are posters who despite disagreeing with them quite strongly on trans issues I would not want to see banned.
But deliberate misgendering is completely out of order - if it happened at a workplace someone could find themselves in some serious trouble. I think most of use want U75 to be ahead of bosses.

In terms of moderating though there’ll be several differing views of this which is why it’s problematic. From yes it is transphobic which you espouse through to it may be disrespectful but isn’t because biology. The mods have to traverse all of that and I’m not surprised they aren’t willing to.

 

[Pickman's model]

OK. But you had just had several pages of back and forth nitpicking when I said that, and I don't think it is ungenerous of me to suggest that this was not the first time?

I put it to you, Mr Bear, that the best use of bandwidth on this site is to determine the posts on this thread - this thread, mark you - which would benefit from examination by a moderator, should one make themselves available

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I vote Pickman’s for moderator. Then we’ll find out the questions he refuses to answer and presumably do a better job.

 

[Pickman's model]

I vote Pickman’s for moderator. Then we’ll find out the questions he refuses to answer and presumably do a better job.

If the call comes, I shall answer it. But there're other people who would be better mods than me, and they should get a chance first

 

[Pickman's model]

In terms of moderating though there’ll be several differing views of this which is why it’s problematic. From yes it is transphobic which you espouse through to it may be disrespectful but isn’t because biology. The mods have to traverse all of that and I’m not surprised they aren’t willing to.

Yeh well if I was modding I'd have issued a warning for that post, because in the context of the discussion it was wilfully inflammatory.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yeh well if I was modding I'd have issued a warning for that post, because in the context of the discussion it was wilfully inflammatory.

I wonder how you’d have coped with any potential backlash, including from decades old friends.

 

[Yossarian]

I think not being OK with deliberate misgendering must come close to the bare minimum of policies that would be needed for a site to be considered LGBT-friendly.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

In terms of moderating though there’ll be several differing views of this which is why it’s problematic. From yes it is transphobic which you espouse through to it may be disrespectful but isn’t because biology. The mods have to traverse all of that and I’m not surprised they aren’t willing to.

Well then the answer is obvious, if its "biology" we all have to have DNA tests and post them up so we can be gendered "correctly" by the gender police.

(or we could just gender people by how they say they want to be gendered)

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Well then the answer is obvious, if its "biology" we all have to have DNA tests and post them up so we can be gendered "correctly" by the gender police.

(or we could just gender people by how they say they want to be gendered)

I was giving examples of the types of arguments that would occur. Given it looks like I might actually spark that argument again I’ll respectfully remove myself from the discussion.

 

[cesare]

I think not being OK with deliberate misgendering must come close to the bare minimum of policies that would be needed for a site to be considered LGBT-friendly.

Gender reassignment is one of the protected characteristics, protected by the Equality Act. Deliberate misgendering is one of the examples of harassment in the Equality and Human Rights Commission's advice and guidance. Gender reassignment discrimination | Equality and Human Rights Commission

If urban doesn't allow harassment on the grounds of the other protected characteristics (race, sex, disability, age etc, there are 9 in total) then it should be consistent with its treatment and moderation of gender reassignment.

 

[cesare]

Well then the answer is obvious, if its "biology" we all have to have DNA tests and post them up so we can be gendered "correctly" by the gender police.

(or we could just gender people by how they say they want to be gendered)

Yes, this comes back to my ongoing point of describing people as "biological [insert]". One can't tell a person's biological makeup by anything but a chromosomal test. As you say, why not just gender people by how they say they want to be gendered and live their lives.

 

[editor]

Mod it properly/at all. Thread bans for deliberate misgendering etc. There are less confrontational ways of discussing this without being shithouse to each other. As others have said; race; gender; sexual prefs; age are all dealt with very differently.

Oh right. Like it's that easy. These threads are absolutely impossible to mod and almost always horribly damaging to the community.

They REALLY fuck me off and some posters should learn when to keep their opinions to themselves when they see the real hurt they cause others.