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Wear masks in shops

waterloowelshy said:
And I could equally state that the left have lost their mind over covid and have become obsessed with being controlled. As previousl posts, the only viable solution given current strategy is to stay in lock down forever. This is despite the virulence of the disease diminishing and death rate reducing whilst cases rise again. At some point there will have to be a common sense approach. Though I suspect that people are enjoying being locked up for their safety. This thread has rather depressingly proven that.
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FOC
 
Leighsw2 said:
I leave it to others to argue about the statistical meaningfulness of the concept of 'miniscule' in relation to this pandemic, but all I know is that a number of my friends and work colleagues have been seriously affected by this virus. Yes, no-one I know has died, but I've seen enough not to want to catch it myself and take a chance as to what might happen to me. Therefore, I do the sensible things - work from home, avoid public transports, restrict social contact, wear a mask etc. Does this mean I'm somehow being 'imprisoned' by a left-wing inspired lockdown as Right-wingnuts like waterloowelshy contend? Hardly! But even if this was true, so what! My parents' generation had to put up with far worse privations what with rationing and bombs raining down on them during the War and the ever present prospect of sudden death. No doubt waterloowelshy would have been there in 1940, writing to the Daily Mail to complain about how unfair the blackout was, after all, the chance of a Lufwaffe bomb falling on his home would have been 'miniscule' and just think of all the economic activity being harmed by blacking out the entire country just in order to avoid guiding German bombers to their targets in London!

For those of us who support the lockdown - and related measures, like masks - it is a sensible application of well proven public health principles in support of the common good. In other words, what benefits a community, or a population, rather than what benefits an individual. Obviously, the Right - who don't believe in the common good - cannot accept this as it conflicts with their belief in selfish individualism and free market Capitalism. For them, belief in their secular religion of free market economics willl always trump (pardon the pun) science. Little surprise that people who can't accept climate science, or indeed the basic laws of physics, are going to struggle with COVID.

The Right, wherever they are in power, have resisted lockdowns in response to COVID or agitated for their lifting as soon as possible on the grounds of maintaining economic activity. But this produces the obvious paradox - the virus is not properly suppressed, soon returns and sensible people (like me) given the choice, prefer to shelter rather than take a chance with waterloowelshy's 'miniscule' risk of death or long term side-effects. This means the economy grinds to a halt once again. Ultimately, people cannot be forced to go to the pub, or shopping (beyond the necessities) or to use any part of the economy they don't absolutely need. Of course, workers can be forced to return to unsafe workplaces (anyone fancy a sandwich?) by unscrupulous employers supported by Right-wing governments. Equally, schools can be made to reopen, regardless of the risks to teachers, by those same Right-wing governments to provide, not education, but childcare, all the better to force their parents back into the workplace. But in this case, let's not pretend this it is the Left who are 'forcing' anyone - it is the Right who are forcing people against their will, and at the risk of their health, to reengage with economic activity in order to restore their employers' profitability.

We see this paradox most clearly in the countries where the most perfect form of this Right-wingnuttery is in power, namely the United States and Brazil, where Right-authoritarian governments have consistently prioritised 'the economy' over public health. Both countries are now disaster zones, but it is the working class - used as cannon-fodder in the Right's offensive to keep the economy open - who have borne the brunt of infection and death. And so it is in this country, with the highest death toll in Europe, but thankfully mitigated because we still have a socialised health service and not even the Tories could stomach 400,000 dead (but still only a drop in the ocean out of a population of 70 million, waterloowelshy!)
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How do you think people will survive without an economy? I'm far from right wing, but understand that poverty and health go hand in hand. The economic fallout from Covid / lockdown in the UK, coupled with Brexit fallout is going to lead to huge levels of deprivation that will kill far more people in the long run. Its not about left or right - I hate when people have to confine to those boxes. It should be about balance and there is none. Great, short term we are saving a few lives. Long term we are going to kill many many more.
 
waterloowelshy said:
How do you think people will survive without an economy? I'm far from right wing, but understand that poverty and health go hand in hand. The economic fallout from Covid / lockdown in the UK, coupled with Brexit fallout is going to lead to huge levels of deprivation that will kill far more people in the long run. Its not about left or right - I hate when people have to confine to those boxes. It should be about balance and there is none. Great, short term we are saving a few lives. Long term we are going to kill many many more.
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So, end lockdown and return to normal, yes?
 
waterloowelshy said:
Have you told that to Glasgow, Manchester or Leicester?
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They are not in lockdown in anyway similar to the situation we all had through April & May. They have local restrictions designed to prevent the need for anything more draconian. I mean, aren't the pubs and restaurants still open in Manchester? Not really a lockdown in any meaningful sense of the word.
 
Teaboy said:
They are not in lockdown in anyway similar to the situation we all had through April & May. They have local restrictions designed to prevent the need for anything more draconian. I mean, aren't the pubs and restaurants still open in Manchester? Not really a lockdown in any meaningful sense of the word.
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Could we still go to the pub or a restaurant together?
No. Under the new lockdown restrictions, pubs and restaurants will remain open but two households will no longer be allowed to mix indoors. The restriction extends to cafes, shops, places of worship, community centres, leisure and entertainment venues.

The relevant businesses have also been advised to monitor customers to make sure they are not interacting with other households.

New laws are being implemented to enforce the changes, with police able to take action if people flout the ban on meeting in homes and gardens. They will have the power to break up gatherings and issue fines of up to £100, which will double for subsequent offences.

Are any businesses closing?
Yes, but only in specific locations. In Blackburn with Darwen, and in Bradford, indoor gyms, fitness and dance studies, sports courts, swimming pools and water parks will remain closed by law.

Its absolutely ridiculous.
 
That's not Manchester though is it?

www.telegraph.co.uk

What are the local lockdown rules in Manchester, Preston, Aberdeen, Kirklees and Bradford?

People in Greater Manchester, east Lancashire and parts of West Yorkshire are banned from meeting different households indoors
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

ETA: A lot of the stuff you are railing against seems to have already happened or may happen in the future. It doesn't bear much resemblance to what is actually happening now in the vast majority of the country.
 
You didn't address my major point - you can't make the economy reopen because you can't force people to consume beyond the necessities. For example, my barber round the corner has reopened. He does a good haircut and I'd very much like to support his business. The chances of me encountering an asymptomatic super-spreader in his salon are quite limited as there are currently estimated to be about 200 infected people in my borough. However, if I did contract it, and as someone over 50, the impact could potentially be severe. Is it worth the risk for a hair cut? Not really, especially when I can perfectly well cut my own in 20 minutes with my professional grade hair clippers!

Risk is not just the likelihood that an event will happen. It's also about the impact if that event does happen. So the likelihood may be 'miniscule', but as long as the possible impact includes hospitalisation, long term disability and/or death, people's assessment of the risk will, reasonably, remain high. This is not 'scare-mongering', but is a rational response, at an individual level, to the uncertainties that attend a world-wide pandemic caused by a virus we didn't even know existed 9 months ago. Your personal risk assessment may differ - some personality types, often associated with Right-wing politics, are known to be impulsive and risk taking with little thought for long term consequences. But please do not map this on to the general population, most of whom clearly view this as a dangerous virus which they do not wish to contract and which they seek to avoid accordingly.
 
Leighsw2 said:
You didn't address my major point - you can't make the economy reopen because you can't force people to consume beyond the necessities.
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you can't force them
but you can persuade them
how many people have spent vast sums on hand gel? on masks? or other ppe? and often on far more than they need.

and far be it from me to point it out, but 'the economy' never closed.
 
Leighsw2 said:
You don't think the Government, and all of its press and media support, have been doing precisely this since the end of April?
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no.

the goverment and all boris johnson's horses and men couldn't persuade itself out of a paper bag.

they can plead and plead. but they're miserable pleaders.
 
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