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Wear masks in shops

I've posted statistics clearly showing that cases are increasing, but hospital admissions and deaths declining and at all time lows. How on earth is that dishonest. Just because you might not want to believe it, doesnt make it any less true.

Go away and read some research and medical opinion about why some of those things are happening. And also look at some predictions from reputable sources of how that might change, rather than it being an inevitable and continuous positive trend.
 
Yeah, and in the future if there isn't a vaccine forthcoming then things will change, but it'd be fucking stupid to do that until we know whether one is possible or not. Seriously you're just coming across as quite clueless about this stuff.
In your opinion. And thats fine. But in your view, at what point do we dispense with the notion of the vaccine if its not coming? Its taken upwards of 10 years previously for certain vaccines and many diseases still have no vaccine. Waiting it out really isnt a magic bullet. Do we stay like this for a year? two years?
 
On the subject of masks themselves I'm seeing quite a lot of families out and about where the adults have masks on but the children don't. I understand that with very young children it could be tricky and there will always be kids (and adults of course) who really struggle with them but I do see some children wearing them with no bother at all. As much as anything it seems to be whether the parents / adults are encouraging the children to wear one.

Whilst we all know that children are incredibly unlikely to get ill from the virus I find it very hard to believe that they can't carry it and indeed pass it on. If that wasn't the case then surely there wouldn't be any question about schools restarting as normal?

What are the views of the parents on here? I can't help thinking that virtually every kid would be made to wear a mask if there was a greater risk of them becoming ill?
My kids (11 & 16) have worn them when we've been out and about. They're happy too, as they understand it could prevent others getting poorly.
Bus this morning everyone had masks except a kid my daughter's age who was with two masked adults - he had a mask on but completely under his chin.
 
Go away and read some research and medical opinion about why some of those things are happening. And also look at some predictions from reputable sources of how that might change, rather than it being an inevitable and continuous positive trend.
It could be a positive trend. Equally it could be a negative trend and back to square one. But it seems only the negative view is allowed to be considered.
 
Of course its to do with wider testing. But it still remains the case that of those increased positive cases less and less of those are (thankfully) requiring hospitilisation and / or leading to deaths.

Some interesting conclusions why here (oh its not youtube):


Given the recent rise in infections, the dip in coronavirus mortality will not necessarily last. As more people socialize, those with milder infections might end up ferrying the pathogen to vulnerable individuals. As states reopen, local leaders are urging residents to continue physical distancing and to wear masks. But even tempered by warnings, moves back toward normalcy could inadvertently signal to people that the worst is already over, Dr. Popescu said.

Two weeks into a new round of coronavirus cases, the United States may be verging on another wave of deaths. Already, hospitalizations have begun an alarming upsurge in several states. “I think the next two to three weeks will be very telling,” Dr. Popescu said.

These predictions from that July 3 article proved to be correct - US deaths started rising about a week later and are now at their highest since mid-May.
 
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Of course its to do with wider testing. But it still remains the case that of those increased positive cases less and less of those are (thankfully) requiring hospitilisation and / or leading to deaths.

Some interesting conclusions why here (oh its not youtube):


Did you even read that article?

"Given the recent rise in infections, the dip in coronavirus mortality will not necessarily last."

"Experts are also reluctant to place too much emphasis on falling death rates. “We’re training a lot of attention on the idea of mortality,” said Dr. Jennifer Tsai, an emergency medicine physician at Yale University. Behind that picture, she added, there is a great deal of suffering."

"Death, when it occurs, tends to trail infection by about two to four weeks. Early on in the pandemic, when testing focused on patients with worrisome symptoms, the typical lag between case and death reporting was a week or two. Now that diagnostic testing is more widespread, that interval has widened."
 
In your opinion. And thats fine. But in your view, at what point do we dispense with the notion of the vaccine if its not coming? Its taken upwards of 10 years previously for certain vaccines and many diseases still have no vaccine. Waiting it out really isnt a magic bullet. Do we stay like this for a year? two years?

It's not my opinion. It's the opinion of the reputable science and pretty much all governments you fucking dimwit. And neither will it be up to me to decide when we stop counting on a vaccine, but surely even you can see now is definitely not the time to think there won't be one is it?

Honestly, I despair. Stop thinking you've stumbled on some better solution to this than everyone that has worked in this area for decades because you've watched a few middle aged men on Youtube get angry about not being to go to the pub or something.

"Professor in infectious diseases? Nah. I watched a few YouTube videos and chatted to Frank down the pub though. Just as valid."
 
Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Trust in God and keep your powder dry etc etc. Its the sensible thing to do.
100%. But somewhere along the line it has become plan for the worst and hope for the worst. Media fear has driven such an OTT reaction to something that stats reveal to be far less dangerous than we are constantly told it is.
 
100%. But somewhere along the line it has become plan for the worst and hope for the worst. Media fear has driven such an OTT reaction to something that stats reveal to be far less dangerous than we are constantly told it is.

What is behind the media hype, in your view?

And how does God figure in all this?
 
Of course its to do with wider testing. But it still remains the case that of those increased positive cases less and less of those are (thankfully) requiring hospitilisation and / or leading to deaths.

Some interesting conclusions why here (oh its not youtube):


Relevant paragraphs:

In general, experts see three broad reasons for the downward trend in the rate of coronavirus deaths: testing, treatment and a shift in whom the virus is infecting. The relative contribution of these factors is not yet clear. And because death reports can lag diagnoses by weeks, the current rise in coronavirus cases could still portend increases in mortality in the days to come.

So lifting lockdowns on the basis of this would at best be premature.

There is also no indication that the death rate is lower because the coronavirus itself has become less deadly, Dr. Ogbunu said. Mutation is a normal part of any virus’s evolutionary trajectory, but these genetic changes are often inconsequential.

No evidence that the virus itself is becoming less deadly.

Experts are also reluctant to place too much emphasis on falling death rates. “We’re training a lot of attention on the idea of mortality,” said Dr. Jennifer Tsai, an emergency medicine physician at Yale University. Behind that picture, she added, there is a great deal of suffering. Reports from around the world have painted a sobering portrait of chronic Covid-19 syndromes, some of which last for months. Patients may be saddled with physical and emotional distress that persists long after the virus has left their bodies.

“Death is not the only outcome,” Dr. Dean said. And people marginalized by race, ethnicity and social standing will inevitably bear more of the disease burden than others, Dr. Tsai added. “The risk and the mortality is going to be passed on to the most vulnerable, no matter who gets infected first,” she said.

Death is not the only problem with this virus.

All of which is pretty close to points that others have already made to you.
 
What is behind the media hype, in your view?

And how does God figure in all this?
Media hype is a great question. I genuinely dont know. But lets be honest the reporting is so OTT. I guess early on it was to instill fear so that everyone abided by the lockdown and now its a case of not being able to retract from that position.

As for god - he gave up on us idits a long time ago. I wouldn't worry about him in all this. :)
 
(I also liked the bit about people 'enjoying' being locked down. I can safely say not seeing friends/family and not being able to go places and do things has not been enjoyable at all. And I'm lucky that I'm still in work and can work from home. I suspect people without work, those with money worries and those with difficult domestic setups have 'enjoyed' it much less than I have. :rolleyes: )
 
Media hype is a great question. I genuinely dont know. But lets be honest the reporting is so OTT. I guess early on it was to instill fear so that everyone abided by the lockdown and now its a case of not being able to retract from that position.

As for god - he gave up on us idits a long time ago. I wouldn't worry about him in all this. :)

Do you reckon the families of the dead would see it as OTT?

Would it be less hype and fearmongering if there were more deaths?
 
Media hype is a great question. I genuinely dont know. But lets be honest the reporting is so OTT. I guess early on it was to instill fear so that everyone abided by the lockdown and now its a case of not being able to retract from that position.

As for god - he gave up on us idits a long time ago. I wouldn't worry about him in all this. :)
46000 families in the UK might not agree that it’s been OTT
 
100%. But somewhere along the line it has become plan for the worst and hope for the worst. Media fear has driven such an OTT reaction to something that stats reveal to be far less dangerous than we are constantly told it is.

To what end? Who benefits? There are a few companies that have done well out of lockdown and quite a few of the government's mates have been given big fat juicy no questions asked contracts for doing fuck all, but who else?

The written press has mostly been pushing the Government hard to get things back to normal. The impact on their industry has been massive. I'm also a little confused as to what else should be happening now. Attendance at live events is still off the list as are nightclubs but most things can now be done to an extent. If you're arguing against future large scale lockdowns than I think most people would be in agreement and we'd need to be back in a pretty dire situation for that to happen again, a crisis basically.
 
46000 families in the UK might not agree that it’s been OTT
The vast majority of those being over 80 and from care home settings. The care home deaths were a scandal and should never have happened. But of those 46,000 how many were outside care home settings? Not very many. But if you ask the UK population you get a reaction as if the 46,000 were spread evenly across the population. Its simply not true. And thats before you factor in the its now been admitted that death numbers were over inflated due to reporting errors.
 
And I could equally state that the left have lost their mind over covid and have become obsessed with being controlled. As previousl posts, the only viable solution given current strategy is to stay in lock down forever. This is despite the virulence of the disease diminishing and death rate reducing whilst cases rise again. At some point there will have to be a common sense approach. Though I suspect that people are enjoying being locked up for their safety. This thread has rather depressingly proven that.

The left ... being controlled ... common sense ... etc. Fuck me, you've not been drinking this shite, you're in it up to your neck.
 
The vast majority of those being over 80 and from care home settings. The care home deaths were a scandal and should never have happened. But of those 46,000 how many were outside care home settings? Not very many. But if you ask the UK population you get a reaction as if the 46,000 were spread evenly across the population. Its simply not true. And thats before you factor in the its now been admitted that death numbers were over inflated due to reporting errors.
They still have families, you callous twerp
 
Both countries experiencing the highest rise in cases in Europe. Both now added to the UK quarantine list. And both countries require mandatory mask wearing in most places. Spain, and recently France, mandated wearing them in public / open air and not just inside. But cases have exploded.
This is such wooly headed nonsense as an argument against masks that I feel to explain it would be beyond you.

Cases continue to rise in the UK and have for about 4 weeks.
 
It's closer to 40% in care homes not the vast majority (and should someone in a care home just drown in their own lung fluids then ffs). At the start of the outbreak care homes deaths weren't even being reported. And while the daily death figures have various errors there is about 55 thousand people where covid was mentioned on the death certificate.
 
To what end? Who benefits? There are a few companies that have done well out of lockdown and quite a few of the government's mates have been given big fat juicy no questions asked contracts for doing fuck all, but who else?

The written press has mostly been pushing the Government hard to get things back to normal. The impact on their industry has been massive. I'm also a little confused as to what else should be happening now. Attendance at live events is still off the list as are nightclubs but most things can now be done to an extent. If you're arguing against future large scale lockdowns than I think most people would be in agreement and we'd need to be back in a pretty dire situation for that to happen again, a crisis basically.
But yet New Zealand has gone back to fairly large scale lockdown overnight due to 13 cases.
This is such wooly headed nonsense as an argument against masks that I feel to explain it would be beyond you.

Cases continue to rise in the UK and have for about 4 weeks.
Cases rise. Hospitilisations and deaths don't. Ergo, positive 'cases' aren't the be all and end all.
 
It's closer to 40% in care homes not the vast majority. At the start of the outbreak care homes deaths weren't even being reported. And while the daily death figures are inaccurate there is about 55 thousand people where covid was mentioned on the death certificate.
Exactly. Mentioned. Not the only cause.
 
But yet New Zealand has gone back to fairly large scale lockdown overnight due to 13 cases.

NZ has a policy of eradication of the virus. They have taken these steps to specifically stop the need for an even larger lockdown at a later stage. Surely that's what we want isn't it?

England doesn't have policy of eradication and personally I don't believe it would be achievable given the situation we are currently in. Throughout this NZ has been a bad example for compare and contrast for many reasons.
 
I leave it to others to argue about the statistical meaningfulness of the concept of 'miniscule' in relation to this pandemic, but all I know is that a number of my friends and work colleagues have been seriously affected by this virus. Yes, no-one I know has died, but I've seen enough not to want to catch it myself and take a chance as to what might happen to me. Therefore, I do the sensible things - work from home, avoid public transports, restrict social contact, wear a mask etc. Does this mean I'm somehow being 'imprisoned' by a left-wing inspired lockdown as Right-wingnuts like waterloowelshy contend? Hardly! But even if this was true, so what! My parents' generation had to put up with far worse privations what with rationing and bombs raining down on them during the War and the ever present prospect of sudden death. No doubt waterloowelshy would have been there in 1940, writing to the Daily Mail to complain about how unfair the blackout was, after all, the chance of a Lufwaffe bomb falling on his home would have been 'miniscule' and just think of all the economic activity being harmed by blacking out the entire country just in order to avoid guiding German bombers to their targets in London!

For those of us who support the lockdown - and related measures, like masks - it is a sensible application of well proven public health principles in support of the common good. In other words, what benefits a community, or a population, rather than what benefits an individual. Obviously, the Right - who don't believe in the common good - cannot accept this as it conflicts with their belief in selfish individualism and free market Capitalism. For them, belief in their secular religion of free market economics willl always trump (pardon the pun) science. Little surprise that people who can't accept climate science, or indeed the basic laws of physics, are going to struggle with COVID.

The Right, wherever they are in power, have resisted lockdowns in response to COVID or agitated for their lifting as soon as possible on the grounds of maintaining economic activity. But this produces the obvious paradox - the virus is not properly suppressed, soon returns and sensible people (like me) given the choice, prefer to shelter rather than take a chance with waterloowelshy's 'miniscule' risk of death or long term side-effects. This means the economy grinds to a halt once again. Ultimately, people cannot be forced to go to the pub, or shopping (beyond the necessities) or to use any part of the economy they don't absolutely need. Of course, workers can be forced to return to unsafe workplaces (anyone fancy a sandwich?) by unscrupulous employers supported by Right-wing governments. Equally, schools can be made to reopen, regardless of the risks to teachers, by those same Right-wing governments to provide, not education, but childcare, all the better to force their parents back into the workplace. But in this case, let's not pretend this it is the Left who are 'forcing' anyone - it is the Right who are forcing people against their will, and at the risk of their health, to reengage with economic activity in order to restore their employers' profitability.

We see this paradox most clearly in the countries where the most perfect form of this Right-wingnuttery is in power, namely the United States and Brazil, where Right-authoritarian governments have consistently prioritised 'the economy' over public health. Both countries are now disaster zones, but it is the working class - used as cannon-fodder in the Right's offensive to keep the economy open - who have borne the brunt of infection and death. And so it is in this country, with the highest death toll in Europe, but thankfully mitigated because we still have a socialised health service and not even the Tories could stomach 400,000 dead (but still only a drop in the ocean out of a population of 70 million, waterloowelshy!)
 
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