waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
No. Ending it is going to just add to those issues. But, the longer it goes on, the less likely any of the furloughed jobs would ever return anyway.
Wear masks in shops
- Thread starter Celyn
- Start date
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Employers are cutting jobs because they know the furlough scheme is going to be ending soon. Come on.
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
Of course they are. Because there is no work for people to go back to. Partly due to continued lockdown restrictions. If you owned a hospitality business or an events companty would you be taking your employees back on at your cost any time soon?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Any decent research you can point us to as a reference for showing that?
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
So the furlough scheme should be continuing for as long as the lockdown is in place. Yet the decision-makers responsible have elected not to ensure that this happens, even though it is entirely possible for them to do so. They can certainly afford it, and if they say otherwise they are fucking lying.
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
Both countries experiencing the highest rise in cases in Europe. Both now added to the UK quarantine list. And both countries require mandatory mask wearing in most places. Spain, and recently France, mandated wearing them in public / open air and not just inside. But cases have exploded.
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Well on a targetted basis at least. Furlough should be extended for those industries that are unable to re-open properly such as events / hospitality etc..
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Ah, a random assumption of yours based on no research then?
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
The point here is that "the economy" is not some inchoate deity that must be appeased with blood sacrifices to ensure times of plenty. We can protect people's livelihoods and crush the bug at the same time. But our leadership has half-arsed their response, dragging their feet with the timing and intensity of the lockdown, cutting off economic support too early, fucking up testing and hardly even bothering with contact tracing. To name just a few issues.
The problem is political.
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
Do you disagree that Spain and France mandate masks heavily and yet have seen an increase in cases greater than anywhere else?
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
100% agree.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
(Pasted from what was gonna be my response on another thread)
Covid has a fatality rate of between 0.6% and 1%. It is said that the herd immunity threshold (by which the virus starts to find it hard to spread to new hosts as more people are immune) is 60% for most viruses. 0.6% of 60% of 67 million is 241200. I'm guessing you wouldn't be ok with that many, which is a low estimate, dying in the space of a few months, with no guarantee that immunity would last? There is evidence that the herd immunity threshold for covid could be higher than 60% as there are studies showing 93% of people in some cities in Latin America with signs of antibodies.
For context there was 616 thousand deaths in the uk in 2018 which was regarded as higher than average, in 2011 it was 552 thousand, so you are talking about between 25% and 33% more deaths, at minimum, than what would die normally within a year just from one illness. Added to that the thousands of people ending up in hospital, people dying from other causes because the hospitals are full, the number of covid sufferers severely ill for months, thousands of people with mild cases but feeling too shit to come into work and so on.
What sort of effect on the economy would that sort of amount of sickness and death have do you reckon?
Covid has a fatality rate of between 0.6% and 1%. It is said that the herd immunity threshold (by which the virus starts to find it hard to spread to new hosts as more people are immune) is 60% for most viruses. 0.6% of 60% of 67 million is 241200. I'm guessing you wouldn't be ok with that many, which is a low estimate, dying in the space of a few months, with no guarantee that immunity would last? There is evidence that the herd immunity threshold for covid could be higher than 60% as there are studies showing 93% of people in some cities in Latin America with signs of antibodies.
For context there was 616 thousand deaths in the uk in 2018 which was regarded as higher than average, in 2011 it was 552 thousand, so you are talking about between 25% and 33% more deaths, at minimum, than what would die normally within a year just from one illness. Added to that the thousands of people ending up in hospital, people dying from other causes because the hospitals are full, the number of covid sufferers severely ill for months, thousands of people with mild cases but feeling too shit to come into work and so on.
What sort of effect on the economy would that sort of amount of sickness and death have do you reckon?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Do you disagree that Spain and France both have better than average weather than the UK and yet have seen an increase in cases greater than anywhere else?
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
No I don't disagree. But our cases are declining. Theirs are rising. Clearly weather is not the panacea that everyone assumed. And neither IMO are face masks. If they were, then France and Spain wouldnt be in this mess as they have mandated compulsory face masks pretty much everywhere for months (while the weather has been good).
Yossarian
⏭️
Linking the France and Spain outbreaks to masks would only work if they had stricter rules than most other countries, which they don't.
France's order came in very late and compliance doesn't exactly seem to be universal in Spain.
english.elpais.com
France's order came in very late and compliance doesn't exactly seem to be universal in Spain.
How Spain’s face mask rules are being broken
Police officers relate the multitude of excuses employed by people to explain why they are not following the coronavirus safety measure
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
It's been widly reported that cases started taking off in places where food & drink is served, such as bars, clubs, restaurants, and at weddings, etc., where masks are not worn.
How the hell you can turn that on its head, and claim that masks don't work, is frankly beyond me.
It's nonsense and totally bonkers.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
OK, maybe I was being too subtle.I was meaning that you're drawing conclusions from equating one thing with another with no research to show that. It's an opinion, not the fact you're suggesting.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
I've recently returned from there and everyone is wearing them. But then they eat, drink, smoke etc....all the while with a mask pulled down on their chin. Finish eating, smoking, drinking and pull said mask back on and carry on. Often the same mask over and over again. So its not really suprising that cases might rise from touch and contamination. Your hands go straight to your mouth to put your mask back on after doing all of those things. Same in supermarkets. Touch everything in the shop. Straight outside and pull your mask off. Touching your face again.
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
As a % of testing incedence they continue to decline.No, they are not.
Actually, most of the evidence from this pandemic and the Spanish Flu of 1918 suggests that the best way to minimise the economic and social damage is to lock down as hard and early as possible, to nip the outbreak in the bud and allow an earlier return to normality.
The other hole in this argument is that trying to carry on as normal does not work. Even if health services are able to cope, high rates of sickness absence are massively disruptive, and businesses dependent on social consumption - pubs, restaurants and the like - struggle because people don't take the risk of patronising them.
This is exactly what we're seeing in some parts of the USA which reopened on the grounds of minimising the economic damage, but after an initial surge are seeing social consumption drop off as infections rise again.
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
Like New Zealand you mean. Oh no, hang on thats not going so well anymore is it.
For fuck's sake.
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Locked down over 13 cases. If they do that every time they see 13 cases, they will be in and out of lock down constantly. Its hardly sustainable.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Because of masks?
waterloowelshy
Well-Known Member
Nope.
Yossarian
⏭️
Apart from maybe during the more than 3 months when they had virtually zero cases.
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