Was the Leave campaign racist?

[phildwyer]

Nah mate

I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other. But racism and xenophobia are different things. For example, racism assumes that the alien is inferior, in culture, intelligence or morality. Xenophobia doesn't make that assumption--it's more likely to see the alien as a serious threat coming from a hostile but culturally equal group.

Again, there's no ethical difference between them. But they are different, and there's nothing to be gained by confusing them.

 

[Wilhelmina.Trav]

I feel that the issue is complex n not as black n white as it appears. I feel that the media n certain politicians have scapegoated certain minority groups such as refugees, the Polish n so forth---aa the "immigration problem" in order to win their argument.

Far easy for people to blame "those foreigners coming here taking our jobs, homes etc" than taking responsibility for things gone wrong in this country(ies). Far easier tham "thinking n working through problems n solutions" to blame others.

Also when people as in such a state of uncertainty or panic they are likely to look for any solution available. Look back to 1933 n how the Germans were concerned for the economy after the 1929 Wall Street Crash - how Hitler used this to get elected as Chancellor n then gradually, through radio, films at the cinema---convinced people that Jews were responsible for Germany's problems.

Were the Germans a bunch of racists thugs - or simply a large group of scared n vulnerable people, yearning to be guided, yearning for a solution to the unemployment? Hitler offered one, scapegoating Jews n once they were taken away from their jobs, businesses etc---n people saw the unemployment falling---they became comvinced their country was improving n that Hitler was a great Chancellor.

Remember---a lot of what really went on (for instance, taken Jews to Cencentration Camps; gasing n torturing them) was hidden from the public. The public was being mass-groomed via media-propaganda. Their thoughts were being manipulated as an extremely clever man fed off on their fear, on their uncertainty, on their vulnerability, on their lack of knowledge of what the government was really getting up to.

Back to now----I'm not saying our government is like Hitler, but, in my opinion, I feel that they---along with the media---may be using similar tactics. To understand how quickly people can be manipulated into favouriting or discriminating a particular group there are some good studies:

Jane Elliot - Brown eyes Blue eyes
Irving Janis concept of GroupThink
Henri Tajfel - Minimal Group Experiments
J Watson "Little Albert"

So---I will end this post with one question---Are the people who voted "leave," racist?---or are they a group of frightened, vulnerable people, who have been groomed into thinking n feeling a specific way that empowers the politicians on a campaign for a specific outcome?

Disclaimer: I am, no way, defending racist behaviour n feel that it is simply disgraceful to behave in such a way, however, as someone who has an interest in Psychology, just trying to answer the question offered.

Evey

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I realise that. There was a little criticism of Farrage but no desire to distance the campaign itself from racist rhetoric. People have voted with no thought for what would happen. To me it feels like well intentioned voters just assumed the outcome of a leave vote would bring a left wing government by default.

Firstly,this just isn't true. There are pages and pages of people sharing their thoughts about how and why to vote. There are many many more pages where those self same people are arguing against racism, and flagging up information relating to organising against racism and the far right. And obviously that is just what those posters have been doing on these boards; not everyone who posts on here is a lonely keyboard warrior sat in a darkened room surrounded by empty fast food containers.

Secondly please find a post where someone has suggested this? It is not the position being put by the vast majority of pro-leavers one here - a position which could be best summed up as a leave vote will have a marginal pro-working class benefit but it remains the case that only working class struggle can bring about fundamental change - but I may have missed this 'left wing government by default' option.

It seems to me that people are getting annoyed with you because you manage to make statements (like the ones I've highlighted) that are not only simultaneously sweeping generalisations and inaccurate, but also deeply insulting (especially given the histories, as evidenced on here and elsewhere) of the people being called apologists for and enabler of racism.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Louis MacNeice]

...So---I will end this post with one question---Are the people who voted "leave," racist?---or are they a group of frightened, vulnerable people, who have been groomed into thinking n feeling a specific way that empowers the politicians on a campaign for a specific outcome?

Those aren't by any means the only options as many of the posts on these boards have demonstrated.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Pickman's model]

I feel that the issue is complex n not as black n white as it appears. I feel that the media n certain politicians have scapegoated certain minority groups such as refugees, the Polish n so forth---aa the "immigration problem" in order to win their argument.

Far easy for people to blame "those foreigners coming here taking our jobs, homes etc" than taking responsibility for things gone wrong in this country(ies). Far easier tham "thinking n working through problems n solutions" to blame others.

Also when people as in such a state of uncertainty or panic they are likely to look for any solution available. Look back to 1933 n how the Germans were concerned for the economy after the 1929 Wall Street Crash - how Hitler used this to get elected as Chancellor n then gradually, through radio, films at the cinema---convinced people that Jews were responsible for Germany's problems.

Were the Germans a bunch of racists thugs - or simply a large group of scared n vulnerable people, yearning to be guided, yearning for a solution to the unemployment? Hitler offered one, scapegoating Jews n once they were taken away from their jobs, businesses etc---n people saw the unemployment falling---they became comvinced their country was improving n that Hitler was a great Chancellor.

Remember---a lot of what really went on (for instance, taken Jews to Cencentration Camps; gasing n torturing them) was hidden from the public. The public was being mass-groomed via media-propaganda. Their thoughts were being manipulated as an extremely clever man fed off on their fear, on their uncertainty, on their vulnerability, on their lack of knowledge of what the government was really getting up to.

Back to now----I'm not saying our government is like Hitler, but, in my opinion, I feel that they---along with the media---may be using similar tactics. To understand how quickly people can be manipulated into favouriting or discriminating a particular group there are some good studies:

Jane Elliot - Brown eyes Blue eyes
Irving Janis concept of GroupThink
Henri Tajfel - Minimal Group Experiments
J Watson "Little Albert"

So---I will end this post with one question---Are the people who voted "leave," racist?---or are they a group of frightened, vulnerable people, who have been groomed into thinking n feeling a specific way that empowers the politicians on a campaign for a specific outcome?

Disclaimer: I am, no way, defending racist behaviour n feel that it is simply disgraceful to behave in such a way, however, as someone who has an interest in Psychology, just trying to answer the question offered.

Evey

Hitler was not elected as Chancellor. Upon the death of Hindenburg in 1934, Hitler, who Hindenburg (German president) had appointed Hitler as Chancellor, merged the offices of Chancellor and president in the new post of fuhrer. In addition, unemployment fell in Germany due in part to the imposition of forced labour building autobahns and the like as men (dk about women) inducted into labour battalions

 

[Anju]

Well, I have been through what I wrote yesterday and have realised that I made some sweeping statements that were unfair to a lot of decent people, for which I apologise. You know you are overstepping the line when people who's opinion you respect disagree so strongly with you.

I was extremely angry having seen the effect of racist abuse and mocking of disability on a 7 year old girl and her devastated mum. This was not the first time I had seen the impact of racist abuse but it was the first time a child had been harmed and this made it impossible for any of us to rise above and rationalise it.

Our recent post riot express court and harsh sentencing seems an appropriate response in the case of the attacks occuring now.

To certain prolific posters here I hope you will look at your sometimes bullying behaviour. I really did get PMs from people thanking me for arguing with you, regardless of whether they agreed with what I was saying. There seem to be people who actually fear posting on these message boards.

This photo is one of the things that cheered me up this morning. My sister in law's 50th. Inclusiveness, love and drunkenness. As life should be (drunkenness optional). Hope it gives some hope to anyone feeling down about the ramped up racial tensions we are dealing with.

 

[Corax]

For example, racism assumes that the alien is inferior, in culture, intelligence or morality.

Does it? I'd class 'equal,but separate' policies as racism myself.

 

[phildwyer]

Does it? I'd class 'equal,but separate' policies as racism myself.

"Equal but separate" never meant what it said. It always meant unequal and separated.

 

[Corax]

"Equal but separate" never meant what it said. It always meant unequal and separated.

Aye, that's true.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I posted this in another thread but don't want to derail it.

I was a little shocked yesterday to discover that some people think there is an excuse for racism, even here on Urban, that there are people that think violence is an acceptable reaction to what is happening at the moment.

Leave voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which Nigel Farrage and his supporters were a major part. Last year he defended a UKIP MP who used the word chinky. You knew you were colluding with racists. Where was the campaign to eject him and his followers 17,000,000 of you just let this happen and many of you knew the potential consequences.

The same thing is happening in America. Liberal commentators are excusing or denying the racism of the Trump campaign. This is not how to harm the establishment, or whatever you want to call the people who rule.

Here are a few definitions of what you are.

What do you call someone who bends reality to come up with plausible sounding reasons to accept or deflect the racist behaviour in others? Is it an associate-racist, a racist's apprentice, or maybe just "a racist"? This is also someone who uses his or her verbal and analytical skills to spin the facts so that they turn in the opposite direction. The victims become the poor white people.

If you think that things the majority of a race consider to be racist towards them are not in fact racist towards them... you might be are apologist for racism.

If your arguments, rhetoric and positions mirror uncannily those deployed by people you know very well are racist you are an apologist for racism.

If you support a cause, and your instinctive response to widespread complaints that many within that cause are circulating racist ideas is not, 'We'd better get those racist ideas and the people who hold them the hell away from our cause, or they'll make us look like a bunch of racists,' but, 'Stop trying to undermine our good and just cause with your spurious accusations; we'll tell you what is and isn't racist'... you are apologist for racism.

If a defender of your cause goes onto national television and says something so obnoxious and wrong-headed that pretty much the entire country's jaw drops in a collective bout of 'WTF?!, and instead of hurling yourself and your cause in the opposite direction, you busy yourself trying to contextualise the supposed nuances of this utterance with reference to sociological, philosophical or political theory. You are an apologist for racism.

At least admit to yourselves what you have done, who you really are and start caring for people other than yourself.

You're dishonest.

You ask a question with your thread title, and then answer it yourself with a tirade of poorly made, totally unsubstantiated - except by your own prejudices - claims about the racist nature of "leave" voters.

Rather than vomiting forth your ill-informed opinions, why not pause and have a think about why people who aren't racist, might have voted "leave". If you're capable of thinking, that is.

I'm an anti-fascist and anti-racist who's been living that for the last 40 years. I challenge racism and rightism wherever I see it, regardless of the personal cost, so to be called an "apologist for racism" by someone whose analysis of the situation is piss-poor is quite entertaining.

You're an idiot.

 

[Anju]

You're dishonest.

You ask a question with your thread title, and then answer it yourself with a tirade of poorly made, totally unsubstantiated - except by your own prejudices - claims about the racist nature of "leave" voters.

Rather than vomiting forth your ill-informed opinions, why not pause and have a think about why people who aren't racist, might have voted "leave". If you're capable of thinking, that is.

I'm an anti-fascist and anti-racist who's been living that for the last 40 years. I challenge racism and rightism wherever I see it, regardless of the personal cost, so to be called an "apologist for racism" by someone whose analysis of the situation is piss-poor is quite entertaining.

You're an idiot.

OK thanks. Have a lovely day.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the difference is that people who voted remain, myself included, will admit to the potential downside to their vote. From what I have seen online people that voted to leave seem reluctant to do so.

Perhaps they were worried about ignorant shitwits calling them"apologists for racism"?

From the start it seemed to me that the main issue with a leave vote was aligning with the right/far right, with a shit Tory government in power, the prospect of n even worse one. They are shameless enough to not even call a GE. As it stands now I don't think things look promising either economy wise or for a nicer more inclusive society.

It's obvious that both campaigns had elements aligning to the left and the right. Many so-called "moderates" in the two major political parties punted views that would have been abhorrent to their core voters. My own MP - Chuka Umunna - thought it was entirely fair to make the old distinction between "good" and "bad" immigrants, rather than defending immigrants as a group.

 

[Corax]

OK thanks. Have a lovely day.

Or, you could take a look at why people with very solid anti-fash credentials such as VP might have voted to Leave.

Just a thought.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, I have been through what I wrote yesterday and have realised that I made some sweeping statements that were unfair to a lot of decent people, for which I apologise. You know you are overstepping the line when people who's opinion you respect disagree so strongly with you.

I was extremely angry having seen the effect of racist abuse and mocking of disability on a 7 year old girl and her devastated mum. This was not the first time I had seen the impact of racist abuse but it was the first time a child had been harmed and this made it impossible for any of us to rise above and rationalise it.

Our recent post riot express court and harsh sentencing seems an appropriate response in the case of the attacks occuring now.

To certain prolific posters here I hope you will look at your sometimes bullying behaviour. I really did get PMs from people thanking me for arguing with you, regardless of whether they agreed with what I was saying.

This photo is one of the things that cheered me up this morning. My sister in law's 50th. Inclusiveness, love and drunkenness. As life should be (drunkenness optional). Hope it gives some hope to anyone feeling down about the ramped up racial tensions we are dealing with.

OK thanks. Have a lovely day.

Regarding racist bullying, and anti-disability bullying - I'm sorry your niece and her child had to go through that. It's not something I'm unacquainted with, but fortunately for me, I look like Shreck, so most name-callers tend to wait until I'm almost out of hearing range before opening their stupid mouths.
I do find the assumption that these idiots are necessarily "leave" voters somewhat unsupported, though. In my long experience, the gobshite tendency don't get involved, they bandwagon-jump after the fact. We've got about 8 decades of statistics and testimony that shows that the hard-right don't tend to use the ballot box, even when they have candidates stand. Griffin and Bron got Euro-seats, but on the basis of a regional protest vote, not because 900,000 people actually supported their policies.

And as for "protest votes", there's some evidence emerging that perhaps as much as 10% of "leave" votes were idiots thinking that it'd make a good protest vote, rather than having any understanding of the actual politics involved.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, I have been through what I wrote yesterday and have realised that I made some sweeping statements that were unfair to a lot of decent people, for which I apologise. You know you are overstepping the line when people who's opinion you respect disagree so strongly with you.

I was extremely angry having seen the effect of racist abuse and mocking of disability on a 7 year old girl and her devastated mum. This was not the first time I had seen the impact of racist abuse but it was the first time a child had been harmed and this made it impossible for any of us to rise above and rationalise it.

Our recent post riot express court and harsh sentencing seems an appropriate response in the case of the attacks occuring now.

To certain prolific posters here I hope you will look at your sometimes bullying behaviour. I really did get PMs from people thanking me for arguing with you, regardless of whether they agreed with what I was saying. There seem to be people who actually fear posting on these message boards.

This photo is one of the things that cheered me up this morning. My sister in law's 50th. Inclusiveness, love and drunkenness. As life should be (drunkenness optional). Hope it gives some hope to anyone feeling down about the ramped up racial tensions we are dealing with.
View attachment 89055

Perhaps you should work on improving your comprehension so we don't have to go through this again. You arguing against the facts may give you the righteous glow of the crusader but it fucks up threads

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or, you could take a look at why people with very solid anti-fash credentials such as VP might have voted to Leave.

Just a thought.

I voted the way I did because given the option to remain in an institution that is committed to piling an ever-higher load on European workers, and fellating capitalism, or leaving that institution and perhaps having a microscopic chance of strengthening worker rights, social security and the like, I opted for the latter.

There are loads of benefits ascribed to membership of the EU, and some of them - the social stuff such as funding of housing regeneration in the '90s, for example - were beneficial to the mass of people, but only because they over-rode what our own governments had on offer. To me, that's a rallying call to fight to change the structure of governance - to strive to make it far more representative of "the people", and less representative of the political class and their paymasters - rather than a rallying call to abdicate responsibility to another stratum of the political class.

 

[Anju]

Regarding racist bullying, and anti-disability bullying - I'm sorry your niece and her child had to go through that. It's not something I'm unacquainted with, but fortunately for me, I look like Shreck, so most name-callers tend to wait until I'm almost out of hearing range before opening their stupid mouths.
I do find the assumption that these idiots are necessarily "leave" voters somewhat unsupported, though. In my long experience, the gobshite tendency don't get involved, they bandwagon-jump after the fact. We've got about 8 decades of statistics and testimony that shows that the hard-right don't tend to use the ballot box, even when they have candidates stand. Griffin and Bron got Euro-seats, but on the basis of a regional protest vote, not because 900,000 people actually supported their policies.

And as for "protest votes", there's some evidence emerging that perhaps as much as 10% of "leave" votes were idiots thinking that it'd make a good protest vote, rather than having any understanding of the actual politics involved.

Thanks,

They were leave voters, talking about getting their country back on a train hen the targeted abuse came as they got off.

I don't fancy any protracted discussion today but thanks for reading and replying.

 

[Anju]

Perhaps you should work on improving your comprehension so we don't have to go through this again. You arguing against the facts may give you the righteous glow of the crusader but it fucks up threads

Ditto

 

[Pickman's model]

Ditto

Yeh everyone fucks up once in a while. But you seem oblivious to your serial misreadings and reluctant to rectify things before calling people racist etc. Please take the time to ensure you understand what you're replying to before hitting the post button.

 

[The39thStep]

remain campaign poster that was never used
@GerriPeev: Pretty tawdry stuff. One of the posters created by M&C Saatchi but not used for the Remain campaign: Gerri Peev on Twitter

 

[Anju]

Yeh everyone fucks up once in a while. But you seem oblivious to your serial misreadings and reluctant to rectify things before calling people racist etc. Please take the time to ensure you understand what you're replying to before hitting the post button.

Nice edit. Nearly as nice as your post suggesting we distinguish between verbal and physical racial abuse. Let's separate them by number of words, fist or foot, knife or bottle.

Take your little online citizen smith boy band and rehearse a new self congratulatory routine. People are tired of the same old tune.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nice edit. Nearly as nice as your post suggesting we distinguish between verbal and physical racial abuse. Let's separate them by number of words, fist or foot, knife or bottle.

Perhaps you could outline on that thread why you think me wrong rather than dragging a disagreement from one thread to another. As a longstanding poster I am sure you're familiar with the faq, esp that bit looking dimly on dragging beefs between threads.

 

[Pickman's model]

Take your little online citizen smith boy band and rehearse a new self congratulatory routine. People are tired of the same old tune.

I like your new variation on millions of PMs of support

 

[Badgers]

Still doing the same old shit

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Still doing the same old shit

You know thats some random individual account, with a few thousand followers right?

 

[TopCat]

This thread actually has some decent discussion on it.