Times you thought real change was coming... only to be sadly disappointed

[Puddy_Tat]

That not being a bastard went too far, I think.

There were people - Danczuk being the most obvious - who could and should have been made an example of. They had every justification - political, moral, criminal - for booting him out of the party, but didn't. Not doing it was shameful.

from where i'm sitting, it seems that corbyn approached being party leader more as a chair / convenor rather than a 'boss' which was at odds with what most people expect of party leaders.

I've never come close to understanding the labour party rules, but how much can a party leader do on their own - especially if they don't have the support and co-operation of the party machine? (as in the anti-semitism allegations that the party machine allegedly sat on to spin it all out as long as possible then spun it as further 'evidence' of jc's anti-semitism when he tried to poke the party machine in to doing something about it all.)

But now it seems that starmer is just being allowed to make the rules up as he goes along.

And of course if corbyn had tried to deal with any of it then how much would have been made in the press of 'anti-democratic - stalinist - purge' and so on?

 

[brogdale]

With the benefit of hindsight, clearly yes.

But it wasn't as though the LP left hadn't been schooled in ruthlessness by the right; they blew their opportunity to make the party what is self-identifies as; a democratic socialist party.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

from where i'm sitting, it seems that corbyn approached being party leader more as a chair / convenor rather than a 'boss' which was at odds with what most people expect of party leaders.

Yes, this was exactly my impression as well. It's something I really liked about him. And it meant that his own various shortcomings didn't actually matter so much. McDonnell was the brains behind the operation anyway.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But it wasn't as though the LP left hadn't been schooled in ruthlessness by the right; they blew their opportunity to make the party what is self-identifies as; a democratic socialist party.

Yes, they did. I don't deny it. I was naive to think it could have been different.

 

[agricola]

And of course if corbyn had tried to deal with any of it then how much would have been made in the press of 'anti-democratic - stalinist - purge' and so on?

It was anyway - but if he had we'd at least have seen them try and explain why throwing someone out of the party who'd threatened other party members (including falsely alleging one had interfered with children under his care), obtained expenses he was not entitled to and ultimately (edit) sexted a 17 year old who'd approached him for a job was Stalinism.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The miners strike; a win was possible and would have been transformative.

I wish I had known more and done more. I think it was a genuine moment when real change was possible.

So many people, big and small bottled it and we're all still paying the price.

For my part I am genuinely and hugely sorry that I didn't really get it's full importance at the time.

In sadness - Louis MacNeice

 

[AverageJoe]

When the internet was invented.

Such a great time of downloading kitten videos, dancing baby, Charlie Bit Me and more.

Over time it's now the most depressing use of humanity.

Everything, everywhere all at once is monitored and posted. Everyone has an opinion, even if it's an uninformed one. Influencers. The rise of hacking, the rise of "likes" for popularity.

Swiping left or right.

People on their own in pubs endlessly doomscrolling Tik Tok on full volume. Pornography accessible to minors. Suicide solutions easily available. Blackmail on massive scale. Ordering a drink in Spoons using" the app". 24 hour monitoring of your location via your phone. Fucking Alexa. Smart fridges. Spam emails. Phishing emails. Emails when you're out of office that you're expected to respond to because if you don't "you're not working hard enough".

Hatred and racial and sexually explicit memes that pass for humour.

I genuinely thought the internet would be amazing. Instead it's made us hate ourselves and the people around us.

I'm sure there are many many more.

I thought the internet would genuinely be great. But the internet is shit.

 

[not a trot]

The miners strike; a win was possible and would have been transformative.

I wish I had known more and done more. I think it was a genuine moment when real change was possible.

So many people, big and small bottled it and we're all still paying the price.

For my part I am genuinely and hugely sorry that I didn't really get it's full importance at the time.

In sadness - Louis MacNeice

Ballots.

 

[A380]

There was a moment when Urban 75 seemed full of optimism. But now it’s been mostly inhabited by miserable fuckers who go out of their way to see the worst in every thing and everyone…

 

[NoXion]

I'd say the period between the invasion of Iraq after 9/11 and the 2008 financial crisis and its immediate aftermath was the period during which I came to realise that the wheel of history turns far more slowly and painfully than I previously thought.

I like to think that despite that, I've managed to hold on to my broader sense of optimism. It's always struck me that the belief that everything is getting progressively worse is fundamentally antithetical to any remotely egalitarian form of political thinking.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

.

 

[Gromit]

There was a moment when Urban 75 seemed full of optimism. But now it’s been mostly inhabited by miserable fuckers who go out of their way to see the worst in every thing and everyone…

Inhabited by the same fuckers. The world just ground them down.

 

[urbanspaceman]

Inhabited by the same fuckers. The world just ground them down.

I’m one of them. And I’m not going to pretend that everything’s just peachy at the moment. Counties naturally experience an ebb and flow In their affairs. In the 70s it really seemed as if we were done for. By contrast, the olympics period was pretty heady.

And this tide in the events of men goes for other countries; in 70s OPEC was going to run the world; in the 80s and 90s it was Japan, then itwas China.

So I guess things will turn out OK: there are many reasons to be optimistic, mostly technology-driven: massively improved producvity and hence GDP through AI and robotics, longer and healthier lifespans through medical molecular biology, expansion into space, improving green technologies.

but the current UK political class is stale and exhausted. let’s look forward to energetic, new politicans, on both sides, with some novel ideas.

 

[Gromit]

I’m one of them. And I’m not going to pretend that everything’s just peachy at the moment. Counties naturally experience an ebb and flow In their affairs. In the 70s it really seemed as if we were done for. By contrast, the olympics period was pretty heady.

And this tide in the events of men goes for other countries; in 70s OPEC was going to run the world; in the 80s and 90s it was Japan, then itwas China.

So I guess things will turn out OK: there are many reasons to be optimistic, mostly technology-driven: massively improved producvity and hence GDP through AI and robotics, longer and healthier lifespans through medical molecular biology, expansion into space, improving green technologies.

but the current UK political class is stale and exhausted. let’s look forward to energetic, new politicans, on both sides, with some novel ideas.

Oh I didn't know you owned an AI system.
They only make the owners wealthy whilst stealing jobs.

 

[RD2003]

The miners strike; a win was possible and would have been transformative.

I wish I had known more and done more. I think it was a genuine moment when real change was possible.

So many people, big and small bottled it and we're all still paying the price.

For my part I am genuinely and hugely sorry that I didn't really get it's full importance at the time.

In sadness - Louis MacNeice

I'm genuinely surprised at what you say, as I've always assumed you're of a similar age to me, although I guess you could have become politicised a bit later?

I think I've mentioned before on here that the strike happened to more or less overlap with a year I spent on the sick after a car accident, and so, when recovering, I was involved in strike support stuff more or less daily. You definitely got a sense that we were fighting for the future of working class organisation as we'd known it, and in a battle that could definitely have de-railed 'Thatcherism.' The scale of it was inspiring, but there was also a sense of dread that a defeat would change everything (or at least there was for me, being even then an arch-pessimist), and frustration at the attitude of most of the 'official' leaders of the labour movement. When the eventual outcome became discernible I knew we were witnessing the last real instance of mass working class solidarity in this country.

It's because of the defeat of the miners that we eventually endured Blair and are probably in for even worse with Starmer, with a probable massive boost for right-wing populism to follow.

 

[scifisam]

I think the last time was probably the massive anti-war march in 2001, a million people from various sides of the the political spectrum coming together to agree on one point. I was still sceptical, but felt bad for being sceptical and held out hope I was wrong. I think a lot of people I know gave up then.

Never even heard of this lol, had never thought even for a second anything was really going to change other than the face on paper money that people don't use anyway and maybe the express trying to find yet another angle on Diana.

Wondering if you're taking the piss or just missed the I, not III bit...

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Day to day it was a lot of bad tweets and a sense of “what has the silly twat done now”.

Also, Roe v Wade was overturned on Biden’s watch - and he could have used his influence to shore up the shakiness of that precedent in his previous incarnation as VP.

Which came about because Trump had nominated three out of the nine supreme court justices. Including one who, iirc, was nominated/confirmed at the tail end of his presidency when convention would usually dictate that the incumbent would leave the appointment to the next president.

You can't really attribute blame for the overturning of Roe v Wade onto Biden.

 

[scifisam]

Which came about because Trump had nominated three out of the nine supreme court justices. Including one who, iirc, was nominated/confirmed at the tail end of his presidency when convention would usually dictate that the incumbent would leave the appointment to the next president.

You can't really attribute blame for the overturning of Roe v Wade onto Biden.

I also think that, pre-Trump, over-turning Roe v Wade seemed to many people to be a ridiculous proposition that was only worried about by doom-mongers. Now people can say Obama should have made efforts to protect it, but that's with hindsight (and also ignoring how much difficulty he had getting anything done).

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

The Manchester Arena bombing in which 22 young women and girls were blown to pieces for wanting to see Ariana Grande. It was the response to this murderous, misogynist, atrocity that convinced me that British is no longer a serious country, but rotten and hollowed-out, with all the appearances of a functioning nation-state, but really an empty husk, culturally, socially and "spiritually" speaking.

The response of the emergency services was woeful, in a familiar and particularly modern British way: a deadly combination of box-ticking, risk aversion, interdepartmental confusion, sloth, buck-passing and incompetence was displayed by MI5, the police and ambulance services.

What really struck me way the way in which government and media tacitly agreed to reframe this intentional act of mass murder as a sort of natural disaster, or Act of God. The mawkish "Don't look back in anger" became the unofficial anthem of this massacre. If a nation agrees to not become angry when 22 young woman are murdered by a politically-inspired fanatic, then it is no longer worthy of regard as a functioning polity.

I remember that the immediate - and customary - media response was handwringing about a possible islamophobic backlash, of which there was of course none.

Compare with the Dunblane massacre: the day after the government and people united in basically banning guns. Things have changed

We are not a serious people.

So what do you think should have happened in the aftermath? They've banned backpacks and big bags from venues. Although of course, they're not weapons.

The bomb also contained nuts and bolts. Do you think nuts and bolts should be banned?

There were chemical ingredients, not sure how easy or difficult it is to acquire them, presumably the authorities will have made it more difficult, if that's possible.

Manchester Arena bombing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Or do you think Muslims should be banned from the UK?

What's your proposed solution for a government that takes things seriously?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I also think that, pre-Trump, over-turning Roe v Wade seemed to many people to be a ridiculous proposition that was only worried about by doom-mongers. Now people can say Obama should have made efforts to protect it, but that's with hindsight (and also ignoring how much difficulty he had getting anything done).

Yes, I vaguely recall government shutdowns because the Republican-controlled... Congress? Senate? Refused to vote to approve budgets, so government could not function.

Also, what could he have done? Maybe he could have persuaded some, eg Ruth Vader Ginsberg to stand down so he could appoint new, younger supreme court justices?

 

[8ball]

Yes, I vaguely recall government shutdowns because the Republican-controlled... Congress? Senate? Refused to vote to approve budgets, so government could not function.

Also, what could he have done? Maybe he could have persuaded some, eg Ruth Vader Ginsberg to stand down so he could appoint new, younger supreme court justices?

For some less vague recollections, I think this is useful in outlining the background:

If It Weren’t for George W. Bush, We Might Still Have Roe

The Supreme Court intervention in the 2000 election changed the course of history.

slate.com

You’ll notice that this does not look at any of Obama’s presidency - for more on that:

Barack Obama Blasted for Not Codifying Roe v. Wade: 'Dem Failure'

Obama told Planned Parenthood in 2007 that the first thing he would do as president was sign legislation on abortion.

www.newsweek.com

And a few words from a man who, whatever you think of him, is really good at talking:



I don’t know how old each poster is on here, but I can remember worries about Reps going after Roe v Wade by stuffing the supreme court being talked about during George W. Bush’s early campaign as soon as he started nuzzling up to the Evangelical Right for votes.

As I said in post 30 - none of this is to say what transpired was Biden’s fault, but balls were dropped, women’s rights were deprioritised (or at least other things were prioritised), and Biden was certainly in a better position than anyone on this thread, and, at the time, in a better position than Trump, to exert influence in another direction.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I also think that, pre-Trump, over-turning Roe v Wade seemed to many people to be a ridiculous proposition that was only worried about by doom-mongers. Now people can say Obama should have made efforts to protect it, but that's with hindsight (and also ignoring how much difficulty he had getting anything done).

There had been people in the US warning that Roe v Wade was a rotten way to protect abortion rights since long before Trump. So it's not just with hindsight. 8ball is right that balls were dropped.

This is a bit with hindsight, but Obama had two years of trifecta - namely, control of White House, Senate and House of Reps - and he and Biden tried to be bipartisan in order to get stuff done with a chance of enduring. Noble, but the Republicans didn't play fair. And when they get trifecta, they just bulldoze everything through. Biden also had two years of trifecta. Realistically in the US system, that's the time to effect change.

 

[PTK]

I was 21 when the miner's strike ended. I knew even at the time that it had been last chance saloon, in Britain at least.

There were two successful strikes by coalminers before that, which no-one cares to remember. There were also the Pentonville Five, jailed under anti-union legislation and freed when the TUC threatened a General Strike. It did not seem daft in those days to talk of the possibility of revolution.

 

[PTK]

like a good few here who go back a long way i have seen plenty disappointments. so many that disappointment is now my expectation. it used to be often remarked that with age comes a propensity for right wing drift, and that most of us, having sung the Internationale in our youth will die insisting upon a union jack draped coffin and a Thatcherite speech from a local round tabler. i don't fit that stereotype really. These days i just see that the wheel of history can take a longer time to turn than i hoped when i was 20, but i still cling (sometimes desperately) to the idea that our day will come. Eventually.

Yes, someone once commented about how young people would join a movement for a couple of years, then drop out when the world was not changed, when in fact the chances of substantial change come only a couple of times in your lifetime, if you are lucky,

 

[PTK]

When the internet was invented.

Such a great time of downloading kitten videos, dancing baby, Charlie Bit Me and more.

Over time it's now the most depressing use of humanity.

Everything, everywhere all at once is monitored and posted. Everyone has an opinion, even if it's an uninformed one. Influencers. The rise of hacking, the rise of "likes" for popularity.

Swiping left or right.

People on their own in pubs endlessly doomscrolling Tik Tok on full volume. Pornography accessible to minors. Suicide solutions easily available. Blackmail on massive scale. Ordering a drink in Spoons using" the app". 24 hour monitoring of your location via your phone. Fucking Alexa. Smart fridges. Spam emails. Phishing emails. Emails when you're out of office that you're expected to respond to because if you don't "you're not working hard enough".

Hatred and racial and sexually explicit memes that pass for humour.

I genuinely thought the internet would be amazing. Instead it's made us hate ourselves and the people around us.

I'm sure there are many many more.

I thought the internet would genuinely be great. But the internet is shit.

Well said.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

For me the big one was the MPs' expenses scandal.

I think most people realise that those at the top are all at it. But don't know what can be done about it so just put up with it.

 

[Weller]

I had a really good feeling during the first year of the pandemic and helping in my community during my furlough etc when the vast majority were pulling together being selfless, helping delivering hot food to vulnerable ,sorting neighbours problems out everyone putting rainbows in windows , scarecrow competitions etc that things would never be the same again
.... then things didnt get back to normal things were very quickly forgotten and much worse around here the majority are being ever more petty , anti social ,racist ,hateful angry and selfish
More depressing is that the majority still love our twat of an MP Gavin Williamson who the school kids back then protested outside his office about exam results etc with overwhelming support , he is now known as "our Sir Gav" despite him doing nothing failing at everything and his shite government
Any change around here is going to be after Ive gone I dont see it changing from being one of the safest seats in the country
Ive become quite sour and probably should move but Ive got so used to telling the majority to fuck off and mind thier own business or else winding them up that I enjoy that part now that Im sure all hope is lost on them
and I do occasionally get to sneer or laugh at Sir Gav when hes out on a trot to get a photo with the new chip shop owners or similar hes a pathetic speaking scrawny useless pratt in real life too how they get in these safe positions failing at everything is a worry

 

[SpookyFrank]

You can't really attribute blame for the overturning of Roe v Wade onto Biden.

He had control of both houses at the time and could have passed a law guaranteeing reproductive rights, taking the whole thing out of the supreme court's greasy paws forever.

 

[Silas Loom]

He had control of both houses at the time and could have passed a law guaranteeing reproductive rights, taking the whole thing out of the supreme court's greasy paws forever.

Or he could have attempted to reverse the imbalance in the SCOTUS resulting from Obama’s pick being stymied and two appointments under Trump. Clarence Thomas could have been impeached, or something.

A lot of missed opportunities there.

 

[[62]]

Hashtag Be Kind. Not something I personally got involved in (I'd never heard of Caroline Flack until the sad event that prompted the above and I've never done Twitter), but for a moment I thought there might be just a little shift towards online moderation and respect. That lasted about five minutes.

That and 2008, austerity and the bank bailouts. Really thought people might finally be drawing the dots, but no.

Otherwise I think I've always been a pessimist who looks for the flaws and understands our human failings.