bimble
floofy
Do you not think society’s moved on since Benny Hill and Alf Garnet were on the telly every day? It definitely has, and not by some happy accident / natural evolution.
'It was a different time': excusing/minimising bad behaviour in the past
- Thread starter Orang Utan
- Start date
maomao
普費斯
Yes but not as much as is claimed. I would look to genuine evidence of changed behaviour such as the teenage pregnancy rate being much lower than it was rather than what it's acceptable to say in polite society though.
bimble
floofy
Those are 2 very totally different things!
What’s the teen pregnancy rate got to do with the price of fish?
Imo ‘what’s acceptable to say’, in public / to strangers, is a massively important issue, more important really than what people might privately think inside the privacy of their heads, but that’s a different conversation.
And how are the teenage pregnancy rates atm ?
maomao
普費斯
Under 18 and 13-16 pregnancy rates in the UK are the lowest since records began.
maomao
普費斯
I think there's a difference between what some men say in front of women and what they'll say in front of other men. And I agree that it's more important, I'm saying that just because it's not acceptable here doesn't mean it isn't acceptable in a lot of settings.
bimble
floofy
yeah, for sure, of course there's not one monolithic culture going on not anywhere. Sarah Everard's rapist and murderer having been affectionately or at least mundanely nicknamed 'the rapist' by his mates in the metropolitan police, who noticed but didn't see a problem, is one of those nuggets that stays with me. locker room chat lol etc.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I've seen/heard how groups of men talk about women in pubs. Enough to make me innocently think when I was 18 that if I was a woman I'd be a lesbian. The culture is filthy, still fixed today, and makes me ashamed to be the sex I was born.
It's not in the past.
It's not in the past.
maomao
普費斯
I've seen a lot of it as a man (not quite as bad as your example tbh). In the same way that racist white people tend to assume all white people are at least a little bit racist; men often assume that other men are at least a little bit sexist.
bimble
floofy
I had a lovely example of that shortly after i moved out here and it still makes me not want anything to do with the local 'community': Bunch of ladies in the village sat around drinking wine and one of them felt inspired to say what she thought about The Jews, because of course it didn't occur to her that one of Them might be sitting right there, in her tastefully appointed garden. good times. When you hear that stuff, if you say something, I reckon they wont do it so blithely again, and i think that matters.
AverageJoe
...
Some kids these days are really aware of this past and have been educated by the schools (and their parents) as such.
I've got a year 7 boy (12 years old) and I bumped into him as he was down the town after school yesterday.
His mates are year 9, so two years older. They were coming out of Greggs for a snack and as they walked down the High St they were nicely bantering etc and my lad put his rubbish in the bin. The year 9s all followed suit.
It's a little thing but I was so proud that he acts like this when I'm not about.
Yes, people on the whole aren't perfect and never have been, but when I see a lot of these kids at this age I think there's a lot we can be proud about, despite the pressures they have on them from the media, Andrew Tate, influencers, Love Island etc.
They are way more capable of dealing with modern life than I was at that age, and it should be encouraged and celebrated.
I've got a year 7 boy (12 years old) and I bumped into him as he was down the town after school yesterday.
His mates are year 9, so two years older. They were coming out of Greggs for a snack and as they walked down the High St they were nicely bantering etc and my lad put his rubbish in the bin. The year 9s all followed suit.
It's a little thing but I was so proud that he acts like this when I'm not about.
Yes, people on the whole aren't perfect and never have been, but when I see a lot of these kids at this age I think there's a lot we can be proud about, despite the pressures they have on them from the media, Andrew Tate, influencers, Love Island etc.
They are way more capable of dealing with modern life than I was at that age, and it should be encouraged and celebrated.
story
Changing the facts
Sometimes they don’t even acknowledge it. Sometimes they ignore the abuse, or don’t care.
I went to a photo exhibition about normal stuff. As I walked into one of the rooms, dead centre ahead, at eye level, framed by the doorway as I walked in was a photo of Savile leering. It was absoltuely in keeping with the exhibition and it was clever curation for that part of the show (telly being ubiquitous, the alter in the front room, the hearth fire of saturday night telly etc). As someone who was molested by Savile , it hit me in the centre of my chest and almost laid me out. I had to do the taking care of myself,personal intervention, emotional housekeeping, all in public. Given the prolific nature of his behaviour I highly doubt I was the only person this happened to. I later wrote to them and asked if maybe they could move the photo so it wasn’t such a dramatic thing. They said blah blah Sorry about that, No can’t do that, artistic integrity the nature of the show it’s in context yadda yadda.
The really shitty thing about this was that they did acknowledge, in the notes, what he’d done and the impact it had had. They even highlighted it with newspaper headlines and photos from other contempiracy stories, to indicate the social mores and ambiguities of the time. But when an actual victim asked for actual consideration , the art was prioritised.
In fact they were actively capitalising on the hammer blow effect of his crimes by placing the photo as they did.
And while we’re on the subject, Bahnhof Strasse still owes me an apology and has refused to give it.
2011, still counting
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story
Changing the facts
I spoke with a bloke who, when I explained what date rape is, got all shifty and weird. He’s exactly the type who would.
I occasionally see people excusing David Baddiel's egregious racism on Fantasy Football as being 'another time'. Like, I know I'm old and that but I had a very clear idea in the mid 90s that blacking up was wrong and I was only a teenager myself
story
Changing the facts
Rape rates are shockingly high though
Nearly one in four rape victims are girls under 16, ‘unacceptable’ new figures show
Analysis often overlooks the fact that a large proportion of victims are children, experts say
www.independent.co.uk
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
They shouldn’t
My Mum was 15 when she gave birth to me
maomao
普費斯
My Mum was 15 when she gave birth to me
In 1989 I had a neighbour of fifteen with three kids. Including twins, but still. Both dads were late teens/early twenties (ie. I didn't know their ages but they were young men not school kids).
maomao
普費斯
We started saying the same about the 60s in the 90s. The 90s seem to have gained a similar legendary decade status recently. It didn't feel like that at the time.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
I was at an exhibtion in Leipzig about German history a couple of years back. Given the subject matter, they had to put the Bad Stuff in a little room behind a curtain. So these people could easily have had their artistic integrity and still paid attention to the people who might be adversely affected by what they were showing.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
At least the 60s had good music.
maomao
普費斯
If you like shit music I suppose.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Found the Jive Bunny fan.
I do recall that being quite common. Not the marrying part, but discreetly dating or fucking PE teachers. I had one after me when I was about 16, but I wasn’t into rugger buggers so it was a no go from my point of view. He soon moved on to a friend of mine who was more receptive, and then someone else. I think we all thought it was just one of those things. Hard to be sure with hindsight.
My mother - and friends of mine of my mothers generation - all, unanimously, say that the pill coming along just as they started having sex was actually a bit of a nightmare. Regarding boys and men they didn’t want to have sex with but didn’t want to offend by saying why, it took away the polite excuse of not wanting to get pregnant, so these guys would push and push until the ‘no’ had to come with a reason. Enough of a reason to finally get them off you, like ‘I wouldn't have sex with you if you were the last man alive’ - then it was time for the ‘you’re a fucking bitch’ routine.
By the time they were young independent women in their 20’s in the 70’s, if anything it had worsened, as there was an expectation among men that all the women were on the pill - and if not, why not? Get on it now love, so you can stop being frigid and have sex with me - me, me, me, me, me. Not an unmitigated joy when examined from all angles.
I know my mother was on it from her mid teens, with her parents consent (probably the only way to access it at the time?) because my grandparents were horrified enough by the thought of teen pregnancy to get real about the fact that teenagers have sex, so it might as well be risk reduced. But the people who think the arrival of the pill suddenly meant Johnny free fun for all comers tend to be male.
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I agree. There’s a lot of hysteria (from adults), but teens today just aren’t that bad from what I can see. In some ways they’re actually rather lovely, much more so than I recall teenagers being when I was one. They most certainly aren’t all watching Andrew Tate in their bedrooms, or turning blind eyes all over the place. I find my teenage son quite easy going, most of the time, and his friends are all quite nice - they generally seem very aware of and open to the world, each other, and others.
Much of this stuff seems to me to be middle aged adults doing what middle aged adults have always done - talking to themselves about how terrible the youth of today are (and occasionally deigning to patronise an actual youth by assuming they have to be made aware that mummy/daddy/uncle/aunt has recently become aware of a frightening new trend that needs to be discussed), how their standards are falling apart, and judging how heavy handed the adult response to them/it should be.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Isn’t that the entire point though? It doesn’t feel it at the time? That behaviour was normalised?
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