Was the Leave campaign racist?

[Anju]

I posted this in another thread but don't want to derail it.

I was a little shocked yesterday to discover that some people think there is an excuse for racism, even here on Urban, that there are people that think violence is an acceptable reaction to what is happening at the moment.

Leave voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which Nigel Farrage and his supporters were a major part. Last year he defended a UKIP MP who used the word chinky. You knew you were colluding with racists. Where was the campaign to eject him and his followers 17,000,000 of you just let this happen and many of you knew the potential consequences.

The same thing is happening in America. Liberal commentators are excusing or denying the racism of the Trump campaign. This is not how to harm the establishment, or whatever you want to call the people who rule.

Here are a few definitions of what you are.

What do you call someone who bends reality to come up with plausible sounding reasons to accept or deflect the racist behaviour in others? Is it an associate-racist, a racist's apprentice, or maybe just "a racist"? This is also someone who uses his or her verbal and analytical skills to spin the facts so that they turn in the opposite direction. The victims become the poor white people.

If you think that things the majority of a race consider to be racist towards them are not in fact racist towards them... you might be are apologist for racism.

If your arguments, rhetoric and positions mirror uncannily those deployed by people you know very well are racist you are an apologist for racism.

If you support a cause, and your instinctive response to widespread complaints that many within that cause are circulating racist ideas is not, 'We'd better get those racist ideas and the people who hold them the hell away from our cause, or they'll make us look like a bunch of racists,' but, 'Stop trying to undermine our good and just cause with your spurious accusations; we'll tell you what is and isn't racist'... you are apologist for racism.

If a defender of your cause goes onto national television and says something so obnoxious and wrong-headed that pretty much the entire country's jaw drops in a collective bout of 'WTF?!, and instead of hurling yourself and your cause in the opposite direction, you busy yourself trying to contextualise the supposed nuances of this utterance with reference to sociological, philosophical or political theory. You are an apologist for racism.

At least admit to yourselves what you have done, who you really are and start caring for people other than yourself.

 

[phildwyer]

No. It was anti-racist.

Many people voted Leave because they object to immigration from Europe having replaced immigration from the commonwealth. They pointed out that European immigrants were mainly white, while commonwealth immigrants were mainly non-white, and they suggested that the motives for replacing the latter with the former were in large part racist. They noted the historical debt Britain owes to the commonwealth, and reminded us that the entire Left, including the Labor Party, opposed all controls on commonwealth immigration on those grounds up until the '60s.

Of course the media does its best to deny the existence of such voters. We might expect it from them. But it is a pity to see otherwise sensible people on here buying into the same caricatured mythology.

 

[Anju]

No. It was anti-racist.

Many people voted Leave because they object to immigration from Europe having replaced immigration from the commonwealth. They pointed out that European immigrants were mainly white, while commonwealth immigrants were mainly non-white, and they suggested that the motives for replacing the latter with the former were in large part racist. They noted the historical debt Britain owes to the commonwealth, and reminded us that the entire Left, including the Labor Party, opposed all controls on commonwealth immigration on those grounds up until the '60s.

Of course the media does its best to deny the existence of such voters. We might expect it from them. But it is a pity to see otherwise sensible people on here buying into the same caricatured mythology.

The numbers of EU v non EU were about equal last year.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The one run by UKIP...yep. The one run by Johnson and Gove...at times. The one run in the Morning Star...nope. The one pushed by the RMT...nope.

There wasn't one leave campaign. Much less was there a singular reason for voting leave.

All the people I know who voted remain didn't do so on the basis of cementing the hegemony of big capital and setting workers against each other through the production and promotion of a Fortress Europe. I could berate them for doing just that (and all that is consequent on that), because that's what I believe the result of a Remain vote would help to produce.

So to me it seems that calling people out for being apologists for racism or capitalism simply on the basis of the way they cast their votes in the referendum, is an unhelpfully blunt instrument with which to deal with the complexities of their circumstances and their decision making processes.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I posted this in another thread but don't want to derail it.

I was a little shocked yesterday to discover that some people think there is an excuse for racism, even here on Urban, that there are people that think violence is an acceptable reaction to what is happening at the moment.

Leave voters, you supported a cause and campaign of which Nigel Farrage and his supporters were a major part. Last year he defended a UKIP MP who used the word chinky. You knew you were colluding with racists. Where was the campaign to eject him and his followers 17,000,000 of you just let this happen and many of you knew the potential consequences.
ical or political theory. You are an apologist for racism.

At least admit to yourselves what you have done, who you really are and start caring for people other than yourself.

If the people who voted Leave were guilty by association because Farage was on the Leave side, then surely the people who voted Remain were guilty by association of discrimination against the poor, the unemployed and the disabled, because Cameron and Osborne were on the Remain side.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The one run by UKIP...yep. The one run by Johnson and Gove...at times. The one run in the Morning Star...nope. The one pushed by the RMT...nope.

There wasn't one leave campaign. Much less was there a singular reason for voting leave.

All the people I know who voted remain didn't do so on the basis of cementing the hegemony of big capital and setting workers against each other through the production and promotion of a Fortress Europe. I could berate them for doing just that (and all that is consequent on that), because that's what I believe the result of a Remain vote would help to produce.

So to me it seems that calling people out for being apologists for racism or capitalism on the basis of the way they cast their votes in the referendum, is an unhelpfully blunt instrument with which to deal with the complexities of their circumstances and their decision making processes.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

This, pretty much. I didn't support leave, but I agree about the complexities and this is the way forward now.

The idea that we should be split 'leave/remain' is itself counterproductive.

 

[phildwyer]

If the people who voted Leave were guilty by association because Farage was on the Leave side, then surely the people who voted Remain were guilty by association of discrimination against the poor, the unemployed and the disabled, because Cameron and Osborne were on the Remain side.

Exactly.

Not to mention a little thing like Cameron's support for genocidal war in the middle east. By the OP's logic I could say that all Remain voters are tarred by association with mass murderers. But I won't, because that would be a stupid thing to say. Not as stupid however as the suggestion that most Leave voters are in any way sympathetic to Farage.

 

[phildwyer]

The numbers of EU v non EU were about equal last year.

So what?

By leaving the EU, we open the door to thousands more commonwealth immigrants. That door should never have been shut in the first place.

 

[Anju]

I think the difference is that people who voted remain, myself included, will admit to the potential downside to their vote. From what I have seen online people that voted to leave seem reluctant to do so.

From the start it seemed to me that the main issue with a leave vote was aligning with the right/far right, with a shit Tory government in power, the prospect of n even worse one. They are shameless enough to not even call a GE. As it stands now I don't think things look promising either economy wise or for a nicer more inclusive society.

 

[Ole]

If the people who voted Leave were guilty by association because Farage was on the Leave side, then surely the people who voted Remain were guilty by association of discrimination against the poor, the unemployed and the disabled, because Cameron and Osborne were on the Remain side.

That goes for the EU as an institution. Not mere discrimination, but the strangling and subjugation of the poor, unemployed and disabled. Robbery of their health, dignity and literally driving many of them to premature death.

 

[phildwyer]

From the start it seemed to me that the main issue with a leave vote was aligning with the right/far right

That was your fundamental mistake.

It also provides an apt illustration of the limitations placed on thinking by the continued use of the outdated "Left/Right" metaphor. The Leave/Remain debate simply doesn't fit that model. If you try to force it to do so, you will end up in absurdity--as this thread clearly shows.

 

[Anju]

If the people who voted Leave were guilty by association because Farage was on the Leave side, then surely the people who voted Remain were guilty by association of discrimination against the poor, the unemployed and the disabled, because Cameron and Osborne were on the Remain side.

Yes, I agree. I have admitted that I am ashamed to be associated with those things. The vote was not about them but it was about immigration. Also you have to look at the consequences. I see us heading for more hate, shift to the right in government that will exacerbate what you mentioned. Our politicians being too incompetent to negotiate trade deals, people around the world having a more negative view of us.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I think the difference is that people who voted remain, myself included, will admit to the potential downside to their vote. From what I have seen online people that voted to leave seem reluctant to do so.

From the start it seemed to me that the main issue with a leave vote was aligning with the right/far right, with a shit Tory government in power, the prospect of n even worse one. They are shameless enough to not even call a GE. As it stands now I don't think things look promising either economy wise or for a nicer more inclusive society.

Don't forget they were for Remain as were the majority of Tory MPs.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[butchersapron]

That goes for the EU as an institution. Not mere discrimination, but the strangling and subjugation of the poor, unemployed and disabled. Robbery of their health, dignity and literally driving many of them to premature death.

The effects of austerity measures on healthcare are serious. According to data, the life expectancy of Greeks has dropped from 81 to 78 years.

That was before the worst of it as well.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Yes, I agree. I have admitted that I am ashamed to be associated with those things. The vote was not about them but it was about immigration. Also you have to look at the consequences. I see us heading for more hate, shift to the right in government that will exacerbate what you mentioned. Our politicians being too incompetent to negotiate trade deals, people around the world having a more negative view of us.

The vote was about both; neither you nor I get to decide what single thing the vote was about. What we can do is to try to get to grips with all the different issues, interests and reasons, and help to work out a progressive way forward.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[DotCommunist]

racist agendas dominated both sides of the right/right split we got to see. Yarls wood still open, lovely EU hasn't sorted that shit out has it? internment camps for fleeing from a hellhole. Run by Serco I see. Nortorious private sector security contractors like g4s who are known to be as malevolent and bullying as they are incompetent and slapdash with safety. Good job the EU stopped all that right?

 

[Anju]

That goes for the EU as an institution. Not mere discrimination, but the strangling and subjugation of the poor, unemployed and disabled. Robbery of their health, dignity and literally driving many of them to premature death.

I keep seeing people say this but it is the policies of our government that have done this to the country. Are there any EU laws which forced austerity measures, stopped imposition of a proper living wage?

 

[butchersapron]

I keep seeing people say this but it is the policies of our government that have done this to the country. Are there any EU laws which forced austerity measures, stopped imposition of a proper living wage?

Those who imposed austerity here were foursquare behind the stay in the EU campaign. I wonder why.

 

[wheelie_bin]

I think you missed what the question was on the ballot paper Anju.

One hope at the end of this could be to finally get Farage and his ugly ilk out of the media and into obscurity for good. Those remain voters who have yet to accept the democratic rejection of the EU political system could be as easily accused of playing right into his hands.

Calling 17.4m people racist or xenophobic due to the vile actions of a tiny minority that have nothing to do with that majority makes you the bigot.

 

[Anju]

The vote was about both; neither you nor I get to decide what single thing the vote was about. What we can do is to try to get to grips with all the different issues, interests and reasons, and help to work out a progressive way forward.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Yes, but I was voting based on what I thought would happen after the vote.

 

[treelover]

If the people who voted Leave were guilty by association because Farage was on the Leave side, then surely the people who voted Remain were guilty by association of discrimination against the poor, the unemployed and the disabled, because Cameron and Osborne were on the Remain side.

Ah, but the hierarchy of oppression doesn't allow for them, especially if they are from the north, estates, etc.

 

[Anju]

Those who imposed austerity here were foursquare behind the stay in the EU campaign. I wonder why.

And we are about to get Barry Scott austerity.

 

[DotCommunist]

I keep seeing people say this but it is the policies of our government that have done this to the country. Are there any EU laws which forced austerity measures, stopped imposition of a proper living wage?

enthusiastic partners in the project. Thats why Johnson has a face like a slapped arse right now. He didn't expect to win.
No the austerity of cokehead osbourne and his lot was welcomed by the EU. Sets a good example.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the difference is that people who voted remain, myself included, will admit to the potential downside to their vote. From what I have seen online people that voted to leave seem reluctant to do so.

From the start it seemed to me that the main issue with a leave vote was aligning with the right/far right, with a shit Tory government in power, the prospect of n even worse one. They are shameless enough to not even call a GE. As it stands now I don't think things look promising either economy wise or for a nicer more inclusive society.

Not sure how you can say children drowning in the med or being trafficked in Turkey is a potential downside.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Yes, but I was voting based on what I thought would happen after the vote.

So did everyone. Labelling everyone who voted Leave as a racist is pretty simplistic.

 

[Anju]

I think you missed what the question was on the ballot paper Anju.

One hope at the end of this could be to finally get Farage and his ugly ilk out of the media and into obscurity for good. Those remain voters who have yet to accept the democratic rejection of the EU political system could be as easily accused of playing right into his hands.

Calling 17.4m people racist or xenophobic due to the vile actions of a tiny minority that have nothing to do with that majority makes you the bigot.

I am not calling all those people racist. Am am saying they are enabling racism.

 

[Pickman's model]

I am not calling all those people racist. Am am saying they are enabling racism.

Something you believe you weren't doing despite all the evidence to the contrary

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I am not calling all those people racist. Am am saying they are enabling racism.

So voting Remain is enabling discrimination against the sick and unemployed?

 

[xes]

And we are about to get Barry Scott austerity.

That's only because of the hysteria that's errupted over this. In a stable economy, us leaving the EU would have had no effect on the pound, or any other global market. There is no real reason for all this austerity. It's just misdirection and lies.

And no, the Leave voters are not a bunch of racists. To label us/them as such is just stupid. It may well have made the racists be a bit louder for a bit, but they'll soon scuttle off under the stones they came from once they see that leaving the EU will bring more immigration.

 

[Anju]

So voting Remain is enabling discrimination against the sick and unemployed?

What do you think will happen now?