'Vegan diets are healthier and safer for dogs' says The Guardian about University of Winchester survey

[Pickman's model]

No more so than most humans.

Some humans sing about wanting to be dogs. No dogs sing about wanting to be human

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The paper is open access and good Lord I’m actually starting to read it

First thoughts - their calculations didn’t account for breed. Whilst I do get their point that this would lead to too many groups with small numbers, given breed is strongly associated with various health outcomes that’s a major flaw.

That was my first thought as well. At the very least, they needed to demonstrate that breed distribution across the different groups wasn't biased by group in a way that could skew results. How many British bulldogs were there in the vegan group? It might not be a bias, but they have just ignored it as a possibility.

Even the proxy for dog health is flawed. Again, I could well imagine that, on average, those who go out of their way to give a non-standard diet will have different attitudes towards vets, particularly if they're doing something that many vets think is a bad idea.

There's an interesting theory that domestic dogs may have evolved to be more omnivorous than their wolf ancestors.

In the wild, wolves obviously do eat meat, but they are also known to eat eggs, berries and even grass if vitamins are lacking. Dogs may have adapted to a diet with less meat and more plant starch. Crucially, they have amylase genes which means they can digest plant starch – an adaptation that may have developed as they ate the scraps left for them around prehistoric campfires.

Can you feed cats and dogs a vegan diet?

Another thumbs-up for insects in that article.


It's not just the Guardian that's been spinning this line about this study. It appears to be being misreported as demonstrating a bunch of things it doesn't demonstrate all over the internet right now.

 

[JimW]

I don’t mind if people are vegans, I think it’s a bit counterproductive due to food miles and industrialisation, but I’m sure my diet is worse! I just dunno where they stand on pets tbh.

My tofu's made by an old fella in the next village who comes round selling it off the back of a three wheelie Sneaky bugger might be buying the beans online for all I know though.
I'm what you might call and ethical vegan but I don't see it as about ticking boxes on some doctrinaire programme, just trying to live in a way that prefigures the better relationship between people, each other and the world we live in come the glorious day. Nothing we do will ever be perfect, but if we don't try it'll be worse.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

When I was at junior school my mate Rob had two Dalmatians that were fed a vegetarian diet by his parents. Both dogs are dead now.

 

[two sheds]

(((dogs)))

 

[a_chap]

No dogs sing about wanting to be human

Please provide a link to support that claim...

 

[Pickman's model]

Please provide a link to support that claim...

 

[kabbes]

That was my first thought as well. At the very least, they needed to demonstrate that breed distribution across the different groups wasn't biased by group in a way that could skew results. How many British bulldogs were there in the vegan group? It might not be a bias, but they have just ignored it as a possibility.

Even the proxy for dog health is flawed. Again, I could well imagine that, on average, those who go out of their way to give a non-standard diet will have different attitudes towards vets, particularly if they're doing something that many vets think is a bad idea.

There's an interesting theory that domestic dogs may have evolved to be more omnivorous than their wolf ancestors.



Can you feed cats and dogs a vegan diet?

Another thumbs-up for insects in that article.


It's not just the Guardian that's been spinning this line about this study. It appears to be being misreported as demonstrating a bunch of things it doesn't demonstrate all over the internet right now.

And that’s just the start of its problems. Books have been written (literally) on the problems associated with research by survey. Unless questions are somehow wholly factual and context-free, which is very hard to achieve, the answers will be constructs of the respondents interpretation and context at time of answering. Normally, a massive part of using surveys to do research is merely proving the reliability and validity of the survey. You’d use tests like Cronbach’s alpha or split-test reliability to check the surveys reliability. You’d test for face validity, construct validity, external validity and a whole load of other validity measures to ensure you were testing what you thought you were testing. You’d seek to understand the context you were presenting as part of the survey. I’m struggling to see evidence that much of that work was done at all (although it’s always possible it was done and not written up — researchers aren’t always the best at giving the belt and braces of this stuff).

 

[campanula]

There is no end of revolting and unethical procedures people have inflicted on dogs. Introducing a vegan diet, with sufficient nutritional additives, comes much, much further down my personal hierarchy of horrors: such as insane breeding distortions, surgical cosmetic alterations and the appalling pedigree mania which deliberately selects for health defects.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Norway recently made breeding certain dogs illegal. You're not allowed to breed any dogs knowing that you will producing puppies with health defects. British bulldogs are banned in Norway now.

This is the way forward, I think. Here in the UK, Crufts has a lot to answer for.

 

[NoXion]

Is OK to promote bad science if it's for a noble cause? In my opinion, no. Once you start making excuses for that kind of behaviour, that's when the rot starts.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

When I was at junior school my mate Rob had two Dalmatians that were fed a vegetarian diet by his parents. Both dogs are dead now.

which millenium was that again?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Norway recently made breeding certain dogs illegal. You're not allowed to breed any dogs knowing that you will producing puppies with health defects. British bulldogs are banned in Norway now.

This is the way forward, I think. Here in the UK, Crufts has a lot to answer for.

I head somewhere that the breeding of pugs and similar abominations was going to be banned here as well.

 

[WouldBe]

If I leave the fridge door open I can guarantee you that it won’t be the salad that the dog scoffs.

Mine will eat cabbage and lettuce dropped from a kebab.

 

[WouldBe]

Don't stand anywhere on pets it's cruel

Dunno they are happy to walk all over us.

 

[WouldBe]

Perhaps you could outline why you think these studies merit inclusion, and describe them, like it says in the faq. One of them appears to be a master's dissertation so not peer reviewed, for example. The second seems only to have looked at 12 dogs.

The first study only looks at 20 dogs.

Also only over a short period. Is 10 weeks long enough to develop anaemia?

 

[WouldBe]

And today's gold prize for whataboutery goes to Sass.

We're talking about dog food, not human medicine, you pillock.

Nice to see you don't care about animal welfare.

 

[Epona]

BTW, before anyone extrapolates further from this, cats are obligate carnivores.

No matter what I and OH decide to eat, the cat gets meat.

 

[keybored]

Some humans sing about wanting to be dogs.

I can only think of that Stone Roses one.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

I can only think of that Stone Roses one.

young'un,
think about the insurance advert

 

[keybored]

young'un,
think about the insurance advert

I don't watch TV* but please do name the tune.

*although I was watching TV when there were ads about crows wanting to be dogs...

Spoiler

 

[scifisam]

I head somewhere that the breeding of pugs and similar abominations was going to be banned here as well.

I saw an article saying that pugs etc were going to be banned, then it said it was suggested by the Blue cross - with no clarification that obviously they meant breeding those dogs, not killing the ones alive now - and as irresponsible as some science reporting can be, it's not usually quite as bad as making it sound like the Blue Cross wants to euthanise thousands of pets.

 

[keybored]

I saw an article saying that pugs etc were going to be banned, then it said it was suggested by the Blue cross - with no clarification that obviously they meant breeding those dogs, not killing the ones alive now

I think any reasonable person would assume that to be the case though without needing clarification, wouldn't they?

 

[keybored]

Back to eating 100% natural things like broiler chickens and cows injected with hormones and stuffed full of antibiotics, to the likely doom of all mankind.

Fewer chickens suffer for every pound of meat produced this way. In the future there will be one mega chicken that we slaughter every 10 years to keep animal suffering (and vegan outrage) to a minimum.

 

[scifisam]

I think any reasonable person would assume that to be the case though without needing clarification, wouldn't they?

Yes, but the problem is the huge number of unreasonable persons.

 

[Epona]

Yes, but the problem is the huge number of unreasonable persons.

Feed them to keybored 's 10 year mega-chicken as a sacrifice to our poultry overlords.

The cycle of life etc.

 

[tonysingh]

Feed them to keybored 's 10 year mega-chicken as a sacrifice to our poultry overlords.

The cycle of life etc.

That's a fairly poultry punishment

 

[Funky_monks]

Are you suggesting humans are going to get ill because their dogs don't eat meat?

Fucking bizarre comparison. It is really weird how veganism winds some meat eaters up so much.

No.
The dogs will.
Cows got ill with BSE, didn't they?
Fucking bizarre how some vegans want to force their diet on animals where its wholly inappropriate, and the intellectual reaching that they attempt to do this, if you ask me.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I saw an article saying that pugs etc were going to be banned, then it said it was suggested by the Blue cross - with no clarification that obviously they meant breeding those dogs, not killing the ones alive now - and as irresponsible as some science reporting can be, it's not usually quite as bad as making it sound like the Blue Cross wants to euthanise thousands of pets.

There'd be no point rounding up and murdering pugs because in the time it took to do it most of them would have dropped dead on their own initiative anyway.

 

[seeformiles]

They’re doing a crap job of that, it’s rank

Don’t know about that. The posh cat pate our cats get on special occasions smells very much like the human variety. I’ve also developed a fondness for “Whiskas Rascal’s Reward” biscuits after accidentally eating some when I was pissed. Apparently they promote the “5 Signs of Health”. (Looks in mirror and marvels at bright eyes, glossy coat, playful nature, healthy urinary tract, etc.)

I had a mate who, when on his uppers, used to fry and eat dog food.