'Vegan diets are healthier and safer for dogs' says The Guardian about University of Winchester survey

[Funky_monks]

tbf I would characterise that a little differently. One key factor in human success in spreading around the planet was the flexibility of the human diet. We're not dependent on one kind of diet.

Also, of course, the way humans got themselves organised to hunt the megafauna of northern climes was catastrophic for the species concerned. It's generally accepted that mammoths went extinct because of humans. We've been pretty destructive for at least the last 80,000 years.

If I recall correctly the "ultimate generalist" theory predates these findings.
And I didn't say hominids weren't destructive - the study included species other than Homo sapiens.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The hominid diet has been meat based for an awful lot longer than that:
Humans were apex predators for two million years, study finds: What did our ancestors eat during the stone age? Mostly meat

Also, before "it's just one study": its a metanalysis, ie combines findings from numerous studies.

Makes sense really, you need to pick a lot of berries to get the calorie and protein density of meat.

 

[Funky_monks]

Makes sense really, you need to pick a lot of berries to get the calorie and protein density of meat.

It has been suggested as a reason for our massive increase in brain size over great apes that became mostly specialist frugivores (we share a common ancestor with chimps, for example, who are mostly frugivores and only hunt occasionally).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If I recall correctly the "ultimate generalist" theory predates these findings.
And I didn't say hominids weren't destructive - the study included species other than Homo sapiens.

Increase in brain size is thought to have been accompanied generally by increased meat-eating, certainly. Expensive things, brains, in need of lots of nutrition.

But I think we need to be a bit careful about causation/correlation. Herbivorous elephants also have big, expensive brains.

 

[Sasaferrato]

It has been suggested as a reason for our massive increase in brain size over great apes that became mostly specialist frugivores (we share a common ancestor with chimps, for example, who are mostly frugivores and only hunt occasionally).

So if the great apes, which are considerably stronger than us, had developed hunting, then Planet Of The Apes might have been for real.

 

[Calamity1971]

So I’ve put any details in spoilers now in respect for different sensibilities, because it’s really not much effort and I’m not a dickhead.

But conversely, I really would not call either of my descriptions “graphic” or written insensitively; maybe quite blunt but nothing as unpleasant as a handful of other comments on the thread. And on a thread about veganism and health/ethics, it’s not exactly a derail to reflect on situations where there’s more transparency about where meat comes from and people’s thinking through of those issues. As Epona said, it’s actually quite positive and even admirable to openly acknowledge where meat comes from if you eat it. And if you did find me too upfront, I guess I didn’t want to wrap it up in euphemisms for those reasons.

Thank you. It's really difficult for some to understand how it can affect some non meat eaters. When it's written down I get the imagery in my head and it upsets me, and if anyone wants to call me a 'tender plant' then go ahead. I really appreciate your response.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Increase in brain size is thought to have been accompanied generally by increased meat-eating, certainly. Expensive things, brains, in need of lots of nutrition.

But I think we need to be a bit careful about causation/correlation. Herbivorous elephants also have big, expensive brains.

Aye, they are about four times the size, but on weight comparison basis are tiny. The 13 pound brain is in a four tonne beast.

Humans are a three pound brain in an 80Kg body. (Sorry for the mix of Kg and pounds.).

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Because that was how life was. Chickens weren't raised as pets, they were raised to provide eggs and meat. As YW said, the creatures lived a natural life, and the end was swift and painless.

I wouldn't go that far. There's suffering involved in raising food in your backyard. Its just that its not difficult to find a better system than the one we're currently using to raise food.

I eat meat, others don't. I don't regard vegetarians as having any right to veto discussion, they are the odd ones really. The human diet has included meat for thousands of years, eschewing meat is a relatively modern fad.

I'm a vegetarian (not vegan). The reasons for that are because of environmental concerns, rather than animal welfare. I do think our current food system is pretty awful and needs revision. This lowest common denominator agriculture doesn't work for planetary, human, or animal health.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Calamity1971 no problem

 

[Sasaferrato]

tbf I would characterise that a little differently. One key factor in human success in spreading around the planet was the flexibility of the human diet. We're not dependent on one kind of diet.

Also, of course, the way humans got themselves organised to hunt the megafauna of northern climes was catastrophic for the species concerned. It's generally accepted that mammoths went extinct because of humans. We've been pretty destructive for at least the last 80,000 years.

Didn't know that. Blimey, how many did we eat?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Didn't know that. Blimey, how many did we eat?

All of them.

 

[tonysingh]

Didn't know that. Blimey, how many did we eat?

All of them, obviously.

 

[Calamity1971]

The human diet has included meat for thousands of years, eschewing meat is a relatively modern fad.

8 of History's Most Famous Vegetarians
Pythagoras.
St. Anthony of Egypt.
Leonardo da Vinci.
Mahatma Gandhi.
Franz Kafka. Franz Kafka.
Mary Shelley.
John Harvey Kellogg.
Leo Tolstoy.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

tbf I would characterise that a little differently. One key factor in human success in spreading around the planet was the flexibility of the human diet. We're not dependent on one kind of diet.

Also, of course, the way humans got themselves organised to hunt the megafauna of northern climes was catastrophic for the species concerned. It's generally accepted that mammoths went extinct because of humans. We've been pretty destructive for at least the last 80,000 years.

Yep. I know Sapiens is pop anthropology but I remember the author making the point that pretty much all the megafauna of Australia went extinct relatively soon after humans settled. Not that the Australian settlers were any worse but more it’s easier to compare because of the relatively late time humans settled.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Didn't know that. Blimey, how many did we eat?

A lot.

They only finally went extinct about 5,000 years ago, but that was a few stuck on a remote island where humans couldn't get at them.

It took a few tens of thousands of years and the end of the ice age to finally complete the job. I think the most spectacular example of a human-caused extinction of megafauna has to be Steller's sea cow, hunted into extinction 27 years after it was first discovered by European sailors. Then there was the moa in New Zealand. That didn't last long once humans arrived. Humans are bad news for big animals, generally.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I wouldn't go that far. There's suffering involved in raising food in your backyard. Its just that its not difficult to find a better system than the one we're currently using to raise food.



I'm a vegetarian (not vegan). The reasons for that are because of environmental concerns, rather than animal welfare. I do think our current food system is pretty awful and needs revision. This lowest common denominator agriculture doesn't work for planetary, human, or animal health.

No, it doesn't.

I've been in an abattoir, not at all pleasant. I was there because I was the most junior engineer in the company, and none of my more senior people would actually go in. I wasn't in the killing and processing area, but walls cannot contain the smell.

The basic problem is producing food that people can afford. Meat consumption is going down year on year, because of cost. It may be that in a few decades, everyone will be functionally vegetarian.

 

[Epona]

8 of History's Most Famous Vegetarians
Pythagoras.
St. Anthony of Egypt.
Leonardo da Vinci.
Mahatma Gandhi.
Franz Kafka. Franz Kafka.
Mary Shelley.
John Harvey Kellogg.
Leo Tolstoy.

To add to that- a lot of ancient Greeks only ate meat on festival days where animals were sacrificed, the ancient Greek diet was mostly ovo-lacto-vegetarian (or pescetarian for some) except on special festival days.

 

[ddraig]

Vegetarians are different but somewhat reasonable ... vegans - thats a mental illness right there

Why?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The basic problem is producing food that people can afford. Meat consumption is going down year on year, because of cost. It may be that in a few decades, everyone will be functionally vegetarian.

That's more the traditional norm. Meat was usually served in small amounts and/or considered a festival food until recently.

 

[Calamity1971]

Why?

Not worth it mate. Its trolling all over the boards.

 

[ddraig]

Not worth it mate. Its trolling all over the boards.

Just wondered if they had any kind of answer beyond "mmm meat", "bacon" or "hur hur"

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just to add, there are other ways of looking at human activity such as the hunting of mammoths. Such an endeavour required a massive amount of cooperation and was very likely a big driver of human cultural development. It's a part of what made us us.

 

[ddraig]

Ah the "expert" who's been called on their BS before and backtracked or gone quiet, yawn

 

[scifisam]

They didn't think cattle would get ill from eating meat derived products either.

This is why feeding animals diets utterly unlike their natural ones is a bad idea - hence a precautionary principle.

Only an incredibly stupid person would try to justify feeding a carnivorous animal a diet composed entirely of plants.

Only an incredibly stupid person would claim that dogs are carnivores rather than omnivores. You really are taking absolute shit here, you know.

 

[Edie]

Only an incredibly stupid person would claim that dogs are carnivores rather than omnivores. You really are taking absolute shit here, you know.

I actually genuinely didn’t know that before this thread Although obviously I knew my dog would eat veg if given left overs, but thought wild dogs would only eat meat.

 

[Sasaferrato]

That's more the traditional norm. Meat was usually served in small amounts and/or considered a festival food until recently.

Yes indeed. We have a friend who married a Turkish man, he was absolutely astounded at the amount of meat we eat.

When I'm on holiday in Turkey, I eat a huge amount of salad stuff, it is just so fresh and tasty. Usually with grilled fish or poultry. Add in the frequent swims, and I'd probably lose weight on holiday, if wasn't for the brandy. (And the gorgeous puddings. ).

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I actually genuinely didn’t know that before this thread Although obviously I knew my dog would eat veg if given left overs, but thought wild dogs would only eat meat.

Yes, me too!

 

[Sasaferrato]

Yes, me too!

Cats aren't though. They need meat.

 

[scifisam]

I actually genuinely didn’t know that before this thread Although obviously I knew my dog would eat veg if given left overs, but thought wild dogs would only eat meat.

You're not the one claiming that a vegetarian diet will kill millions of dogs though!

 

[scifisam]

Cats aren't though. They need meat.

That has been mentioned in this thread a few times already. I'm not really sure why it's come up at all TBH - like it's obligatory to mention cats when the subject is dogs?