'Vegan diets are healthier and safer for dogs' says The Guardian about University of Winchester survey

[two sheds]

Rabbits become carnivorous when they go ferral

 

[Funky_monks]

I actually genuinely didn’t know that before this thread Although obviously I knew my dog would eat veg if given left overs, but thought wild dogs would only eat meat.

They are carnivorous - the majority of their natural diet is meat.
I did not say they are obligate carnivores.

Carnivory/onnivory/herbivory is something of a sliding scale - for example, ruminants (herbivores) will consume some animals in the form of insects. Wolves (dogs) consume some plant matter (often berries and some shoots and the stomach contents of herbivorous prey) very occasionally, it is not a significant part of their nutritional intake, in the same way that insects are not a significant part of the nutritional intake of ruminants.

 

[scifisam]

They are carnivorous - the majority of their natural diet is meat.
I did not say they are obligate carnivores.

Carnivory/onnivory/herbivory is something of a sliding scale - for example, ruminants (herbivores) will consume some animals in the form of insects. Wolves (dogs) consume some plant matter (often berries and some shoots and the stomach contents of herbivorous prey) very occasionally, it is not a significant part of their nutritional intake, in the same way that insects are not a significant part of the nutritional intake of ruminants.

But wolves are not dogs. And dogs are omnivores.

Millions of dogs are not going to die because they're fed vegan dog food. That just is total bollocks.

 

[Funky_monks]

But wolves are not dogs. And dogs are omnivores.

Millions of dogs are not going to die because they're fed vegan dog food. That just is total bollocks.

How do you know?
There are no long term studies on this.
As I said, it's exactly the same "they are just macronutrients, how they are derived is unimportant" philosophy that lead to BSE in cattle.

Those feeding cattle on those feeds thought exactly the same as you, the nutritionists who derived those feeds thought exactly the same as you, look how that ended up.....
To add: dogs are genetically less than 0.04% different from wolves. They are so similar that they can interbreed...

 

[scifisam]

How do you know?
There are no long term studies on this.
As I said, it's exactly the same "they are just macronutrients, how they are derived is unimportant" philosophy that lead to BSE in cattle.

Those feeding cattle on those feeds thought exactly the same as you, the nutritionists who derived those feeds thought exactly the same as you, look how that ended up.....

You have got to be kidding. Fuck it, I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[Funky_monks]

You have got to be kidding. Fuck it, I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How do you know?
There are no long term studies on this.
As I said, it's exactly the same "they are just macronutrients, how they are derived is unimportant" philosophy that lead to BSE in cattle.

Those feeding cattle on those feeds thought exactly the same as you, the nutritionists who derived those feeds thought exactly the same as you, look how that ended up.....
To add: dogs are genetically less than 0.04% different from wolves. They are so similar that they can interbreed...

That may well be an important 0.04% though regarding what they can eat.

A difference in just one gene out of what 30,000-odd makes humans lifelong lactose tolerant or not. And that's been selected for independently several times in just the short time that we've been farming. I can well believe that diet related evolution has taken place in the longer time that dogs have lived with humans. Be more surprising if it hadn't.

Eta: the link I posted earlier mentions an example.

 

[ddraig]

You have got to be kidding. Fuck it, I'm putting you on ignore.

They're a shill for the industry...

 

[Sasaferrato]

That has been mentioned in this thread a few times already. I'm not really sure why it's come up at all TBH - like it's obligatory to mention cats when the subject is dogs?

Balance.

 

[ddraig]

Balance.

How so when this thread is about DOGS and NOT ABOUT CATS??

 

[Spymaster]

Who's winning this thread today then?

 

[Funky_monks]

That may well be an important 0.04% though regarding what they can eat.

A difference in just one gene out of what 30,000-odd makes humans lifelong lactose tolerant or not. And that's been selected for independently several times in just the short time that we've been farming. I can well believe that diet related evolution has taken place in the longer time that dogs have lived with humans. Be more surprising if it hadn't.

Eta: the link I posted earlier mentions an example.

But there's been no selection pressure towards veganism in dogs - there was significant selection pressure towards lactose digestion in human populations that started dairying. The lactose intolerant ones in those populations would have died, so you are kind of supporting what I'm saying.

 

[Funky_monks]

They're a shill for the industry...

I've been on these forums for a lot longer than I've been working in those jobs - probably would have been 2000-2001ish, certainly there are people on here who were students at the same time as me at the same university. I was an undergraduate 1999-2002.

Are you a "shill" for whatever industry you work in?
It's an intellectually lazy, shitty argument to be fair.

 

[WouldBe]

You have got to be kidding. Fuck it, I'm putting you on ignore.

Iirc the covid vaccine was tested on 10,000 patients before it was deemed safe for general use and that was for something that was supposed to be a one off jab, not something that is supposed to be eaten day in day out for the rest of the dogs life. If anyone thinks testing 32 dogs over 10 weeks proves it's ok then they are seriously deluded. Far, far more objective testing needs to be done over a far longer period before anyone can say it's ok for a dog to live on.

 

[two sheds]

I'll swear I remember a thread a couple of years ago where Funky Monks demonstrated specialist technical knowledge on a related subject (possibly agricultural, possibly GM, possibly neither) and clearly knew what he was talking about.

But there again what do I know?

 

[WouldBe]

But there's been no selection pressure towards veganism in dogs - there was significant selection pressure towards lactose digestion in human populations that started dairying. The lactose intolerant ones in those populations would have died, so you are kind of supporting what I'm saying.

I understood that the gene that produces lactase turns off permanently if you stop eating dairy for a period of time which can cause lactose intolerance.

 

[Funky_monks]

I understood that the gene that produces lactase turns off permanently if you stop eating dairy for a period of time which can cause lactose intolerance.

Could well do, might be that exposure to lactose early in life (but post weaning, naturally) turns the gene on for people who are able to digest lactose. Others may not be able to do this and wouldn't have survived to reproduce in societies consuming dairy

 

[WouldBe]

Could well do, might be that exposure to lactose early in life (but post weaning, naturally) turns the gene on for people who are able to digest lactose. Others may not be able to do this and wouldn't have survived to reproduce in societies consuming dairy

I understood it was the other way round. The gene was active at birth and turned off after weaning if dairy wasn't included in the diet.

My sister used to eat cereal for breakfast as a child along with a glass of milk at bedtime. She stopped eating cereal for a few years and only now is lactose intolerant.

 

[Funky_monks]

I understood it was the other way round. The gene was active at birth and turned off after weaning if dairy wasn't included in the diet.

My sister used to eat cereal for breakfast as a child along with a glass of milk at bedtime. She stopped eating cereal for a few years and only now is lactose intolerant.

Makes sense.
That doesn't explain people who never tolerate lactose post weaning though.

 

[JimW]

How do you know?
There are no long term studies on this.
As I said, it's exactly the same "they are just macronutrients, how they are derived is unimportant" philosophy that lead to BSE in cattle.

Those feeding cattle on those feeds thought exactly the same as you, the nutritionists who derived those feeds thought exactly the same as you, look how that ended up.....
To add: dogs are genetically less than 0.04% different from wolves. They are so similar that they can interbreed...

What lead to BSE in cattle was feeding slaughterhouse by-products to obligate herbivores, mashed up spines of cows to other cattle; it was the danger of an animal being fed its own species brains, hence the similar condition of some cannibalistic humans.

 

[Funky_monks]

What lead to BSE in cattle was feeding slaughterhouse by-products to obligate herbivores, mashed up spines of cows to other cattle; it was the danger of an animal being fed its own species brains, hence the similar condition of some cannibalistic humans.

Yes, and the thoughts of nutritionists at the time was that this would be fine because they'd been highly processed into meal. Other animals are naturally cannibalistic and would probably have no issues digesting a diet derived from the same species.
Eating a vegan diet is also unnatural to dogs, ergo precaution.

It's interesting how you are quite happy to call cows obligate herbivores, in spite of the fact that they consume small numbers of insects regularly, and yet me describing dogs as carnivorous because they consume minor amounts of plant matter brought howls of outrage (not from you, I might add)

Not the greatest source, I'll grant you but: Do Cows Eat Insects? - Neeness

 

[Sasaferrato]

How so when this thread is about DOGS and NOT ABOUT CATS??

Because cats and dogs are two sides of the same coin. Someone has to speak up for the cats.

 

[JimW]

Yes, and the thoughts of nutritionists at the time was that this would be fine because they'd been highly processed into meal. Other animals are naturally cannibalistic and would probably have no issues digesting a diet derived from the same species.
Eating a vegan diet is also unnatural to dogs, ergo precaution.

Pretty disingenuous to claim its macronutrients per se when clearly in the case of BSE it was the source that was the problem though I reckon, though on a wider take I get the point. The order of risk from something genuinely knocked up in a vat is not really going to be as bad as something farming common sense told everyone was a bad idea - my dad used to work at a feed mill when all this was going on and he said they all knew it would end in tears.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Yes, and the thoughts of nutritionists at the time was that this would be fine because they'd been highly processed into meal. Other animals are naturally cannibalistic and would probably have no issues digesting a diet derived from the same species.
Eating a vegan diet is also unnatural to dogs, ergo precaution.

It's interesting how you are quite happy to call cows obligate herbivores, in spite of the fact that they consume small numbers of insects regularly, and yet me describing dogs as carnivorous because they consume minor amounts of plant matter brought howls of outrage (not from you, I might add)

Not the greatest source, I'll grant you but: Do Cows Eat Insects? - Neeness

I saw a picture somewhere of a cow eating a snake.

 

[Funky_monks]

I saw a picture somewhere of a cow eating a snake.

Yeah, they've been known to eat carrion on occasion too - seen them eat a dead bird before.

To add, it's really common for vets to remove nails, fencing staples etc etc from their stomachs too, but I'd never suggest that including metals in their diet was a good idea either..

 

[Agent Sparrow]

That has been mentioned in this thread a few times already. I'm not really sure why it's come up at all TBH - like it's obligatory to mention cats when the subject is dogs?

Almost like a discussion on violence towards women

The BSE comparison is puzzling me too. Feeding an animal we don’t eat, and generally keep in households, a vegan diet is completely different from feeding an animal we eat, which lives in groups on farms, the brains of said animal. If a vegan diet is not good for dogs the worst that would happen is some poorly dogs. And flawed as the study is, the only way to determine if it’s ok is to research it.

 

[WouldBe]

Makes sense.
That doesn't explain people who never tolerate lactose post weaning though.

A quick Google days you can be born lactose intolerant but I'd have thought you wouldn't survive infantsy (sp) if that was the case considering human milk contains 50% more lactose than cow's milk.

 

[tonysingh]

I saw a picture somewhere of a cow eating a snake.

I've seen plenty of snakes eating a cow.

 

[Edie]

My omnivore on the back of the settee surveying his kingdom and subjects. I may well give him a good deal more veggies now, I usually predominantly just scrape the meat off the plates.

 

[JimW]

It's interesting how you are quite happy to call cows obligate herbivores, in spite of the fact that they consume small numbers of insects regularly, and yet me describing dogs as carnivorous because they consume minor amounts of plant matter brought howls of outrage (not from you, I might add)

Dogs are carnivores but not obligate though AFAIK - i.e. they will voluntarily chow down on starchy plants or something whereas cows will only consume animal protein by accident, though no doubt there's the odd exception. It's not really a point I'd bother to argue though suppose relevant here because it does seem to allow the possibility of vegan diets for dogs, not that its something I've tried with ours or would.