US House passes Obama's key healthcare reform
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Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Did you even read the fact sheet Butchers posted? You'd do well to read it and watch the lecture I linked to. The middle classes are fast becoming the poor and that lecture provides evidence for it. Her reasoning for giving the lecture is that most studies are of the poor, very few have been done on the middle class, her research speaks volumes.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Arghh!!! Are you reading the thread or even that article? They'll be subject to 'mandated insurance' - that is, those who don't have health insurance because they can't afford are to forced to buy private health insurance under the threat of fines. Of course, the fines are going to be lower than the cost of getting insurance, so people are going to pay the fine - and they'll be judged to have 'opted out'.
Do you dispute the figures? If they take the fine they will be uninsured, if as your link says there will be 30M less uninsured then they took the insurance, no?
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
Are they going to have food and shelter? For some they're going to have to choose between buying the legally mandated insurance or paying for necessities.
And are they going to have access to health care, even with insurance? I'm nominally middle-class and my deductible went to $3,500 in plan and $10,500 out of plan this year. That essentially puts me into the "I have health insurance, but no health care" group. It would bankrupt me to actually get sick and this plan does nothing to change that for millions of people.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Most people can't afford health care now and over half of all bankruptcies are because of health care bills. How is a new bill that gives the choice of either paying for health care or paying a fine for health care? At least in the old system you could opt out and be left alone. The 30 million figure is just a random figure. This is going to seriously fuck people over, the fact that the bill is virtually identical to the health care lobbyists proposals should tell you all you need to know.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I dispute that forcing people who can't afford health insurance to buy health insurance (with no block on the companies raising premiums or any other profit making schemes they can come up with) counts as extending insurance. Nor do i count the putting of privatised profit at the centre of health allocation for the next 100 years at least as a step forward towards a better system.
I mean the very poorest, those who were fined for opting out of the private health insurance the state tried to force them to buy will be shoveled into an underfunded medicaid system, entitled to only minor and extremely short-term or emergency care. Health ghettos replicating or mirroring real ghettos.
I'd rather not have private insurance at the center either, but there simply aren't the votes in the congress to change that now or in the foreseeable future.
It is underfunded but does provide much more than that.
http://www.money-zine.com/Financial-Planning/Buying-Insurance/Medicaid-Benefits/
Combustible
Well-Known Member
Just having health insurance in the US doesn't mean you can afford healthcare. From what I can tell nearly every insurance scheme (particularly those affordable to the poorest) will have a myriad of copayments and deductibles for many treatments. This is why something like three quarters of people who have gone bankrupt due to medical bills have health insurance already. And from the factsheet.
Miss Caphat
I want it that way
One point: the fee for not buying insurance is not as scary as it sounds, assuming that it will be comparable with what we already have here in Mass. The way it works is, if you seriously don't make enough to pay the fee, then you most likely qualify for the state funded program for free or reduced cost care. Part of the point is that when people don't apply for such programs, and end up in the ER, especially for something that could have been preventable, those hospital bills don't just disappear. They are paid for by a govt fund for unpaid hospital bills. The point is to save $ (and lives) by "forcing" people to get preventative care, even if it is paid in part or full by the govt, it will save money for everyone in the end to not have the higher emergency room costs.
And no, the system here (in mass.) Is far from perfect. I know this very well,as I personally have been uninsured for the most part of the last 15(!) yrs of my life. I haven't been able to qualify for MassHealth due to a technicality.
None of this is ideal. We hate that the insurance co's still make out on this deal. But its a small step. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only way things get done here (in the U.S.)
And no, the system here (in mass.) Is far from perfect. I know this very well,as I personally have been uninsured for the most part of the last 15(!) yrs of my life. I haven't been able to qualify for MassHealth due to a technicality.
None of this is ideal. We hate that the insurance co's still make out on this deal. But its a small step. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only way things get done here (in the U.S.)
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Amen. When you read those points, one wonders what the resistance was, aside from the resistance of the wealthy to a tax increase.
It's nice to see the wealthiest country on earth do something like this for its citizens.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
What needs to happen, is for Obama to win a second term. If the health care plan is allowed to operate for seven years, it will be a start in showing americans that communism doesn't inevitably follow, and that the reforms have been a force for good in the lives of many people.
If that's allowed to happen, the Repubs won't be able to win on a platform of rolling it back, seven years from now.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
I think the health reform in the US was well overdue but there are a lot of people against it, whether this resistance is based on fact or not.
One of the reasons for being against it is the fear of their health system becoming like the system in Canada because "we often see Canadians coming over the border to get treatment that is not available or not available in a reasonable time in Canada" (I'm in Oregon at the moment on a job)
That quote was from a conversation I had a couple of days ago with someone who is far from being wealthy and is also not a republican.
Any comments?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Too bad no one ever takes the time to learn the truth of how the system operates here.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Auto insurance is mandatory, but no one seems to think that that is a bad thing. In Canada, we pay health insurance premiums - here in B.C., it's to an entity called MSP - Medical Services Plan. Its an entity set up by the govt to deal with medical costing, payments etc. It's mandatory to be a member and to pay the premiums.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Have I been covered all this time under MassHealth and never knew about it?
Just so long as the insurance companies make their profits but leave me alone.
You're being pretty cryptic. What's your beef with this plan?
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
I've no idea how the system works up there, but the quote was from someone who IMO shouldn't be against health care reform but is and that was one of the reasons she gave based (according to her) on her experience of meeting and talking with Canadians in the US.
I think the propaganda put out by the GOP is exactly that, propaganda (mainly because, despite its faults the NHS isn't that bad) but this is a person speaking from experience.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
You and Missy are really something. I'm starting to feel like I'm stuck in detention with Allison Reynolds and Claire Standish.
I'd take detention with Molly Ringwald any day.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
It's a very small step, and the criticisms are justified, but it's silly to pretend there's nothing at all positive in it. About half of those who will get coverage where they had none will qualify for free care under Medicaid, and most of the rest will qualify for subsidised insurance. Medicaid reimbursement is increasing 10% to encourage doctors to take on Medicaid patients. Baby steps, for sure, and miles away from what the majority of the public and the majority of employers want, but it's hard to comprehend quite how fucked up the US healthcare system is. The vested interests won't give up without a fight.
From what I've heard, shares in drug companies have gone up with the news but the market is more mixed on its verdicts with the insurance companies; some are expected to do well out of this, others will lose out. Don't know how that will pan out - I've not seen much about how the various localised monopolies will be affected and how much additional competition will be introduced.
From what I've heard, shares in drug companies have gone up with the news but the market is more mixed on its verdicts with the insurance companies; some are expected to do well out of this, others will lose out. Don't know how that will pan out - I've not seen much about how the various localised monopolies will be affected and how much additional competition will be introduced.
dilute micro
esse quam videri
Not going to happen.
People are still going to eat at McDonalds, Burger King, Arby's, Captain D's, Wendy's, Church's Chicken, Pizza Hut, Papa Johns, SteaknShake, Cook Out, Taco Bell, chinese and drink all the Pepsi, Coke etc...they can hold
or buy the same Hot Pocket crap frozen at the store and microwave it at home
^ their whole lives
still going to smoke
and still going to end up at the hospital all the same.
dilute micro
esse quam videri
I'd take detention with Molly Ringwald any day.
That's cool cause I liked Ally Sheedy better.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_pharmacy#U.S._consumers
In the border states, thousands of people cross the line on trips especially to fill their prescriptions and avoid the prohibitive pricing they'd face in the US.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Hands off she's mine
Cheers for that I may be using it in a sequel to the previous conversation
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
It's my understanding that there's a certain cut off point that enables you to qualify for Medicaid. The people that fall just outside of that, i.e already struggling lower middle class families, won't be able to qualify but will be fined if they don't buy health insurance. I also understand that medicaid is being cut, dunno how true that is though.
That's a pretty poor argument. You choose to drive a car and cars cause a lot of accidents so it absolutely should be mandatory, if you can't afford to drive you don't drive. Health, on the other hand, is an entirely different kettle of fish. You don't really have a choice on whether you get ill or not, sure you can take steps to prevent it but it's all pot luck in the end.
I think if the fines weren't in the bill and more pressure on the insurance companies not to charge what they like, i'd be more inclined to support it. I said it earlier, the fact that the bill is virtually identical to the insurance lobbyists proposals should tell you who really wins out of this.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Cars are pretty universal here, so the similarity may be greater here. And you don't really have a choice in whether you're in a car accident or not.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Of course not but the point is you choose to drive the car that leads to that accident. You don't tend to choose to get, say, dementia. That's the difference.
Edit: Just thank our lucky stars we live in a country with universal health care. How does it work in Canada? Do you have a similar thing to our national insurance that funds it?
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
There's no reason car insurance has to be private. Some Australian states insure every driver 3rd party as part of the licence fee. It's not sensible to allow anything that we all, or most of us, have to have into a profit-making industry. That's why US healthcare is so peculiarly fucked.
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