US House passes Obama's key healthcare reform

[dilute micro]

Stop acting like John Bender and maybe Principle Vernon will let you out to play.

I'm 90% Brian Johnson and 9% John Bender.

You got me wrong.

 

[butchersapron]

So does this bill actually give the poorer people affordable health insurance or not?

NO, it provides them with mandated insurance - that is, they are legally forced to buy private health insurance - no guarantee about premiums, hikes anything - or be fined.

 

[tbaldwin]

It's called "herding", balders. It's a standard tactic. You open by going all-out against something, then concede points, but only points that draw the opposition toward the model you favoured in the first place.
The health insurers knew this was coming, and "played" the administration to get the best deal they could.

Maybe....But do you think they really wanted a deal that meant they would have to offer cover to people who already had long term illnesses and stopped them from just dropping people who got sick? If so why?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

NO, it provides them with mandated insurance - that is, they are legally forced to buy private health insurance - no guarantee about premiums, hikes anything - or be fined.

It doesn't guarantee access either, even if they can afford the insurance. There's a chronic doctor/nurse shortage in the US and in some rural areas you have to drive a long way just to get to a doctor. When my father was sick I had to drive 6 hrs (one way) to get him to a specialist. He quickly became too sick to make the trip.

 

[Combustible]

I see a series of tiny incremental tinkerings that are being put in place at the cost of putting the health insurers in the driving seat for evermore. The main thing being not being able to drop people for being sick or for refusing people with pre-existing conditions. Dealing with both/either of these did not necessitate giving the insurers billions (to later become trillions).

The implication from the Socialist Worker article earlier is that the price of covering those with pre-existing conditions aswell as keeping premiums down is that health insurance be mandated.

Summoned to a congressional hearing, a well-coached Angela Braly, CEO of WellPoint--which netted $4.7 billion in profits last year--was unapologetic. "Raising our premiums was not something we wanted to do," Braly declared, "but we believe this was the most prudent choice given the rising cost of care and the problems caused by many younger and healthier policyholders dropping or reducing their coverage during tough economic times."

Braly went on to criticize the Democrats' health care proposals for having a weak "personal coverage requirement"--read: mandate. In fact, the legislation will force tens of millions of people into the arms of private insurers, but that's not good enough for Braly and Co.--they want no one exempted from the mandate and higher financial penalties for anyone who doesn't get coverage.

The next stop for Braly--along with Stephen Hemsley, CEO of UnitedHealth, the country's largest health insurer--was a private meeting at the White House with Obama and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius. The meeting was described in the New York Times as "surprisingly cordial," but there were no concessions from the insurers on the premium increases.

 

[butchersapron]

The implication from the Socialist Worker article earlier is that the price of covering those with pre-existing conditions aswell as keeping premiums down is that health insurance be mandated.

Well there's balders answer anyway. I think that Obama didn't need to swallow that - he chose to.

 

[dilute micro]

You guys are getting all stirred up over something that's going to change anyhow. Single pay is the intended goal. This is just the foot in the door.

 

[girasol]

so people will be forced to have health insurance?

How's that free healthcare? I guess it's an improvement, but sounds like they have a LONG way to go yet.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You guys are getting all stirred up over something that's going to change anyhow. Single pay is the intended goal. This is just the foot in the door.

I think most of the posters here would be glad to hear it.

 

[dilute micro]

I think most of the posters here would be glad to hear it.

Everything here is utopia.

Politicians aren't money squandering criminals. They're trustworthy champions of the poor. Trillion dollar debts and bailouts disappear from the books. The future is bright and sunny though some deluded scrooges are bent on not appreciating it.

 

[Combustible]

Well there's balders answer anyway. I think that Obama didn't need to swallow that - he chose to.

I wasn't claiming he needed to. Clearly it would have been possible to stop the denial of coverage without pouring more money down the throats of the insurance industry.

I suspect the insurance industry had realized they couldn't keep denying coverage like they had done. It was a lightning rod for healthcare reformers and brought a hell of a lot of bad publicity with countless anecdotes of suffering because of coverage being refused

 

[butchersapron]

I wasn't claiming he needed to. Clearly it would have been possible to stop the denial of coverage without pouring more money down the throats of the insurance industry.

I suspect the insurance industry had realized they couldn't keep denying coverage like they had done. It was a lightning rod for healthcare reformers and brought a hell of a lot of bad publicity with countless anecdotes of suffering because of coverage being refused

Sorry, wasn't meaning to suggest you had, was just pre-empting some of the claims i expect to see in reply later.

Going back to fact sheets - here's one that pretty much takes apart all the on benefits listed above. If anyone has any real interest in this issue please do read it - at least the fact box thing - it's the best short thing i've seen yet (and do look at the notes, some really useful stuff in there)

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Everything here is utopia.

Politicians aren't money squandering criminals. They're trustworthy champions of the poor. Trillion dollar debts and bailouts disappear from the books. The future is bright and sunny though some deluded scrooges are bent on not appreciating it.

I'm not certain what point you're making with this patronizing hyperbole and you certainly haven't read any of my posts on this thread. If you had, you'd see that I favor of system where neither the for-profit insurance companies and hospitals or the goverment run health care.

 

[dilute micro]

I'm not certain what point you're making with this patronizing hyperbole and you certainly haven't read any of my posts on this thread. If you had, you'd see that I favor of system where neither the for-profit insurance companies and hospitals or the goverment run health care.

I wasn't talking about you.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I wasn't talking about you.

By quoting me and responding to my post, it appeared that you were talking to me.

 

[dilute micro]

By quoting me and responding to my post, it appeared that you were talking to me.

And it wasn't patronizing hyperbole. This health care plan has been supported so much on this board and once it's passed everyone then scrambles to learn the details.

 

[dilute micro]

It's all about the brand name, not the product.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Sorry, wasn't meaning to suggest you had, was just pre-empting some of the claims i expect to see in reply later.

Going back to fact sheets - here's one that pretty much takes apart all the on benefits listed above. If anyone has any real interest in this issue please do read it - at least the fact box thing - it's the best short thing i've seen yet (and do look at the notes, some really useful stuff in there)

Thanks for that link, Butchers, it's very informative. I think this bill is going to be a very large nail in the coffin for America's middle class. Reading that sheet just reminded me of . It's a one hour lecture so I won't expect you to view it but it's very interesting and very damning of the last 30 years of this economic system.

Edit: Just saw Michael Moore on Channel 4 news and he was dismayed at the bill "Millions of Americans are now mandated to write a check to big insurance companies and those companies have just gained millions of new customers"

 

[tbaldwin]

Thanks for that link, Butchers, it's very informative. I think this bill is going to be a very large nail in the coffin for America's middle class. Reading that sheet just reminded me of . It's a one hour lecture so I won't expect you to view it but it's very interesting and very damning of the last 30 years of this economic system.

Edit: Just saw Michael Moore on Channel 4 news and he was dismayed at the bill "Millions of Americans are now mandated to write a check to big insurance companies and those companies have just gained millions of new customers"

So just to recap this bill will do nothing to help poor people in america. It will hurt the middle classes. The rich are against it, the insurance companies were against it........All very strange.......

 

[Combustible]

So just to recap this bill will do nothing to help poor people in america. It will hurt the middle classes. The rich are against it, the insurance companies were against it........All very strange.......

Evidence for the latter two?

In fact AHIP the insurance industry lobbyist seem to agree with most of the final bill. Most of the objections raised here seem fairly minor and mostly complain that they are not being funneled even more money or that doctors can be sued for malpractice.

 

[tbaldwin]

Evidence for the latter two?

In fact AHIP the insurance industry lobbyist seem to agree with most of the final bill. Most of the objections raised here seem fairly minor and mostly complain that they are not being funneled even more money or that doctors can be sued for malpractice.

So its a victory for the insurance companies then....crikey....only butchers can save us now....

 

[rikwakefield]

WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF ENACTMENT

*Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits will be eliminated and annual limits are to be restricted.

*Insurers will be barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

*Young adults will be able to stay on their parents' health plans until the age of 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.

*Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new program that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.

*A temporary reinsurance program is created to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64. This also expires in 2014.

*Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the "doughnut hole" coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.

*A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.

*A 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2011

*Medicare provides 10 percent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.

*Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalized prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.

*A new program under the Medicaid plan for the poor goes into effect in October that allows states to offer home and community based care for the disabled that might otherwise require institutional care.

*Payments to insurers offering Medicare Advantage services are frozen at 2010 levels. These payments are to be gradually reduced to bring them more in line with traditional Medicare.

*Employers are required to disclose the value of health benefits on employees' W-2 tax forms.

*An annual fee is imposed on pharmaceutical companies according to market share. The fee does not apply to companies with sales of $5 million or less.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2012

*Physician payment reforms are implemented in Medicare to enhance primary care services and encourage doctors to form "accountable care organizations" to improve quality and efficiency of care.

*An incentive program is established in Medicare for acute care hospitals to improve quality outcomes.

*The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees the government programs, begin tracking hospital readmission rates and puts in place financial incentives to reduce preventable readmissions.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2013

*A national pilot program is established for Medicare on payment bundling to encourage doctors, hospitals and other care providers to better coordinate patient care.

*The threshold for claiming medical expenses on itemized tax returns is raised to 10 percent from 7.5 percent of income. The threshold remains at 7.5 percent for the elderly through 2016.

*The Medicare payroll tax is raised to 2.35 percent from 1.45 percent for individuals earning more than $200,000 and married couples with incomes over $250,000. The tax is imposed on some investment income for that income group.

*A 2.9 percent excise tax in imposed on the sale of medical devices. Anything generally purchased at the retail level by the public is excluded from the tax.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2014

*State health insurance exchanges for small businesses and individuals open.

*Most people will be required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fine if they don't. Healthcare tax credits become available to help people with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty purchase coverage on the exchange.

*Health plans no longer can exclude people from coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

*Employers with 50 or more workers who do not offer coverage face a fine of $2,000 for each employee if any worker receives subsidized insurance on the exchange. The first 30 employees aren't counted for the fine.

*Health insurance companies begin paying a fee based on their market share.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2015

*Medicare creates a physician payment program aimed at rewarding quality of care rather than volume of services.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2018

*An excise tax on high cost employer-provided plans is imposed. The first $27,500 of a family plan and $10,200 for individual coverage is exempt from the tax. Higher levels are set for plans covering retirees and people in high risk professions. (Reporting by Donna Smith; Editing by David Alexander and Eric Beech)

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1914020220100319

 

[ViolentPanda]

Maybe....But do you think they really wanted a deal that meant they would have to offer cover to people who already had long term illnesses and stopped them from just dropping people who got sick? If so why?

Because it means that in turn for a not-particularly-costly concession, they were able to ensure a permanent revenue stream not from individuals with insurance, but from the government tit. Just like US defence companies, they've been given a licence to bilk the taxpayer.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Everything here is utopia.

Politicians aren't money squandering criminals. They're trustworthy champions of the poor. Trillion dollar debts and bailouts disappear from the books. The future is bright and sunny though some deluded scrooges are bent on not appreciating it.

Meanwhile, back in the real world...

 

[TomUS]

So just to recap this bill will do nothing to help poor people in america.

It'll help a lot of poor people...

Lower-income Americans who can't afford to buy insurance will get help in one of two ways. The bill expands Medicaid, the free government plan for the poor and disabled, to anyone making up to about $15,000 a year. (About 16 million new people are expected to go into Medicaid or the Children's Health Insurance Program because of the bill.) Second, it would provide subsidies to people who aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicare but still struggle to afford insurance. Individuals making up to about $44,000 would qualify for some kind of subsidy. And for people who don't get insurance from their employers, they'd be able to shop for plans on new insurance exchanges.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/politics/2010/03/22/what-is-and-isnt-in-the-healthcare-bill.html

 

[TomUS]

The Repubs are very upset.....usually an indication something good just happened.....

David Frum, former speechwriter to President George W. Bush:

Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. [...]

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat. [...]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/22/health-care-reactions-fir_n_507753.html

 

[TAE]

It'll help a lot of poor people...

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/politics/2010/03/22/what-is-and-isnt-in-the-healthcare-bill.html

Ah, thanks, I thought there was something like that in the bill.

 

[rikwakefield]

The Repubs are very upset.....usually an indication something good just happened.....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/22/health-care-reactions-fir_n_507753.html

Speaks volumes really.

 

[butchersapron]

Ah, thanks, I thought there was something like that in the bill.

Yeah, it'll shovel the poorest into segregated underfunded health ghettos.

 

[butchersapron]

Speaks volumes really.

Oh my god, you're really going to let yourself get played by both sides aren't you?

Any comments on the info in this?