US election 2020 thread

[spring-peeper]

Haven't watched that. But people need an incentive to fact check, to go beyond taking at face value of information they're presented with. Going back to that press conference last night, what if I were a republican voter, would have been my incentive to check out what they're saying. That's my team, I might not like some of the players but being called thick, racist or whatever, by the other side isn't going to send me on a fact finding quest to undermine the camp I'm in. Where's the benefit to me. It will make me feel like I've been mugged off, stupid and losing face, to the other side. I don't care about the sanctity of the system persay. Everyone thinks it's against them anyway. The swamp, rich republicans talking about elites etc.

I still don't have a problem with calling morons, morons but if trying to understand their motivation needs a bit more.

I think this may shed some light on why they are against fact checkers

 

[andysays]

Can someone please remind me of the website / twitter account which summarises the progress in court cases Trump's team are attempting to bring.

Ta.

Have you tried www.notafuckinghope.com ?

 

[redsquirrel]

Quite, the handwringing about the subversion of democratic norms is silly - everyone involved does whatever they think they can get away with, democratic norms are a sham. The unusual thing is how far this is from the 'things you can get away with' class of actions.

Absolutely this.
On the "irrational" populists

Time Magazine humorist Joel Stein describes the essential divide between liberals and Trump supporters like this: "Elites are people who think; populists are people who believe." Populists are creatures of intuition and childlike impulse, people who think that facts "are indistinguishable from lies"....
Just as in 1896, populism is supposed to represent the appetites and vulgar urges of the body, in revolt against the higher faculties of thought and reason

Good job these nice rational liberals don't invent their own myths - of the economy, of democratic norms, of out of control mobs

 

[bimble]

The interviewer in that clip seemed to want them to reel off a list of proof as if they'd have it to hand, he had no interest in understanding them and no one's going to come any closer to understanding them from watching stuff like that. The whole intention is to make them incomprehensible. But I don't think sheer stupidity is a very good explanation for how Trump has effectively played on distrust of the media, or for the ways people get drawn into closed loops of conspiratorial stuff on the internet for example. If you watch some of the endless videos of liberals being lost for words or getting incoherently angry on youtube you'll get a similar impression.

And let's face it, for all the talk about looking for evidence or finding out if you're being lied to how many of us actually do any of that? Don't we all just lazily repeat shit off social media without checking if it's true? I do, and it accounts for about half the content on this forum so I'm guessing everyone else does too.

yeah. I've had a tiny bit more of a think now and there's also this isn't there: If you're a person whose already hitched your wagon to the trump train and are now sharing the idea that he was robbed of his victory by soros/ venuezuela or whatever - then what on earth is there to gain from looking for evidence which might disprove that?
It's basically only going to offer you potential ostracism from your peers, a shitty feeling of having been lied to by those you trusted, and sadness that you backed the losing team. Nothing good at all so why would you do it.
erta what xenon said already soz

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Haven't watched that. But people need an incentive to fact check, to go beyond taking at face value of information they're presented with. Going back to that press conference last night, what if I were a republican voter, would have been my incentive to check out what they're saying. That's my team, I might not like some of the players but being called thick, racist or whatever, by the other side isn't going to send me on a fact finding quest to undermine the camp I'm in. Where's the benefit to me. It will make me feel like I've been mugged off, stupid and losing face, to the other side. I don't care about the sanctity of the system persay. Everyone thinks it's against them anyway. The swamp, rich republicans talking about elites etc.

I still don't have a problem with calling morons, morons but if trying to understand their motivation needs a bit more.

Trump supporters believe the democrats look down on them. Which they do. When one party is sneering at you, and an alternative comes along that doesn’t, it’s obvious what will happen.

In that context, the fact Trump is deeply flawed only amplifies the sense that he is non-judgmental (how can someone who is already in the gutter look down on you?), and paradoxically it is therefore the flaws that make him popular.

That’s my theory anyway.

 

[Orang Utan]

But Trump despises poor people

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

But Trump despises poor people

Maybe so, but that doesn’t change the fact that his supporters don’t see it that way.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Trump either despises you or he's envious /covetous of you/what you've got. And many of those who adore him are similarly envious/covetous. That's what puts them on the same side.

 

[bimble]

Trump will never tell you to eat your greens though.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

The interviewer in that clip seemed to want them to reel off a list of proof as if they'd have it to hand, he had no interest in understanding them and no one's going to come any closer to understanding them from watching stuff like that. The whole intention is to make them incomprehensible. But I don't think sheer stupidity is a very good explanation for how Trump has effectively played on distrust of the media, or for the ways people get drawn into closed loops of conspiratorial stuff on the internet for example. If you watch some of the endless videos of liberals being lost for words or getting incoherently angry on youtube you'll get a similar impression.

And let's face it, for all the talk about looking for evidence or finding out if you're being lied to how many of us actually do any of that? Don't we all just lazily repeat shit off social media without checking if it's true? I do, and it accounts for about half the content on this forum so I'm guessing everyone else does too.

Speak for yourself mate. I don't repeat stuff elsewhere unless I've checked it.

Tbf, one of the reasons I like this place is exactly because there is a general baseline of expectation that facts will be checked and sources given.

Ever spent time arguing with a Trump supporter? Those that I have traded opinions with are steadfast in their conviction. The march on DC was 2 million and BLM have killed and bombed over 50 cops... that kind of thing. And nothing - nothing - you say will change their minds.

This is one of the things that really worries me for the future. The pure blind faith is potentially incredibly useful for the unscrupulous & manipulative.

Bannon and his tribe are licking their chops

Pretty much. I argued one friend to ground and he finally admitted that he believed it "because it sounded true and he wanted to."

I recognise this. Also the deep huge frustration and sadness that goes with it.

 

[gentlegreen]

Trump either despises you or he's envious /covetous of you/what you've got. And many of those who adore him are similarly envious/covetous. That's what puts them on the same side.

plus he doesn't speak like a darned high-falutin interlectuwal ......

 

[bimble]

This is one of the things that really worries me for the future. The pure blind faith is potentially incredibly useful for the unscrupulous & manipulative.

Bannon and his tribe are licking their chops

But what if none of this is actually new, there are not a higher proportion of blind followers in the world now than there were yesterday or 300 years ago, its just that we blame the internet instead of preachers and we can see them sharing their memes. idk just thinking aloud. What if the whole idea that here we all are in a shared reality (of what some post-enlightenment age of science and progress or something) that was the blip, the illusion.

 

[spring-peeper]

 

[Cloo]

I think gameplan is for GOP to fabricate whatever they want during the Biden administration, relying on their fanbase to massively amplify any old shit and then run, maybe with Trump, on a 'DEFEAT THE MOST CORRUPT ADMINISTRATION EVER' and 'CROOKED DEMS STOLE YOUR 2020 VOTE' ticket with Facebook and Twitter as their 'proof'.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

But what if none of this is actually new, there are not a higher proportion of blind followers in the world now than there were yesterday or 300 years ago, its just that we blame the internet instead of preachers and we can see them sharing their memes. idk just thinking aloud. What if the whole idea that here we all are in a shared reality (of what some post-enlightenment age of science and progress or something) that was the blip, the illusion.

Yes, I think that’s true too.

But it’s because of the internet they/we can all connect with each other in ways that were never possible before now.

And there’s a general widespread lurch to the right / uptick of populism that’s going on too.

Chicken and egg stuff there.



A lot of this is gazing at the number of angels that might fit into a navel.

Some of it is just clickbait and doom scrolling. We won’t really know what it’s all about til we have hindsight. Cos even if we could predict the future accuratley, what on earth could be done about it anyway.

 

[Yossarian]

Trump will never tell you to eat your greens though.

He must definitely be a hero to the anti-eating your greens lobby - George HW Bush took a hard line on broccoli - "I do not like broccoli. And I haven’t liked it since I was a little kid and my mother made me eat it. And I’m president of the United States, and I’m not going to eat any more broccoli!" - but I think Trump took it up a notch, I don't think anyone's ever seen him eat a green vegetable and his doctor has said he used to have cooks conceal vegetables in his food as if he was a fussy 5-year-old.

He also rolled back improvements to school nutritional standards, allowing pasta to be declared a vegetable.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I think gameplan is for GOP to fabricate whatever they want during the Biden administration, relying on their fanbase to massively amplify any old shit and then run, maybe with Trump, on a 'DEFEAT THE MOST CORRUPT ADMINISTRATION EVER' and 'CROOKED DEMS STOLE YOUR 2020 VOTE' ticket with Facebook and Twitter as their 'proof'.

I reckon that will wear pretty thin over four years, with all but the most devoted loons anyway. I doubt Trump himself will be that bothered beyond a certain point. He's no ideologue, as soon as his own self interest requires him to fuck off quietly he will do so.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

He must definitely be a hero to the anti-eating your greens lobby - George HW Bush took a hard line on broccoli - "I do not like broccoli. And I haven’t liked it since I was a little kid and my mother made me eat it. And I’m president of the United States, and I’m not going to eat any more broccoli!" - but I think Trump took it up a notch, I don't think anyone's ever seen him eat a green vegetable and his doctor has said he used to have cooks conceal vegetables in his food as if he was a fussy 5-year-old.

He also rolled back improvements to school nutritional standards, allowing pasta to be declared a vegetable.

Okay, so this is a good example of me checking shit I read on social media before accepting it. ( inva )

That vegetable thing. I’d like it to be true, but is it just made up bullshit to make Trump look bad....?

Nope, it’s true.

That’s mildly entertaining, but the “pasta is a vegetable” thing - which I also didn’t know and is also true - is more insidious because it potentially has real world long term detrimental effects.

 

[Orang Utan]

He must definitely be a hero to the anti-eating your greens lobby - George HW Bush took a hard line on broccoli - "I do not like broccoli. And I haven’t liked it since I was a little kid and my mother made me eat it. And I’m president of the United States, and I’m not going to eat any more broccoli!" - but I think Trump took it up a notch, I don't think anyone's ever seen him eat a green vegetable and his doctor has said he used to have cooks conceal vegetables in his food as if he was a fussy 5-year-old.

He also rolled back improvements to school nutritional standards, allowing pasta to be declared a vegetable.

Reagan famously attempted to get ketchup classified as a vegetable in schools

 

[Idris2002]

Reagan famously attempted to get ketchup classified as a vegetable in schools

And then Dr. Alzheimer said, "ach so, now it is YOU who is classified as ze vegetable, ja?"

Ich bin hier der ganz woche.

 

[petee]

And so Dr. Alzheimer said, "ach, now it is YOU who is classified as ze vegetable, ja?"

Ich bin hier der ganz woche.

gott in freakin' himmel.

 

[Idris2002]

gott in freakin' himmel.

I just hate the fuckin Eagles, man

 

[Cloo]

I do try to ignore some of the RW Americans I follow in Twitter and remind myself that the Twittersphere isn't reality.

 

[Pickman's model]

I do try to ignore some of the RW Americans I follow in Twitter and remind myself that the Twittersphere isn't reality.

Why do you follow rw americans in the first place?

 

[Cloo]

Why do you follow rw americans in the first place?

Trying to avoid being a bubble and see what these people say to one another, not just 'my' people sardonically retweeting them to slag them off. It's illuminating but depressing.

 

[weltweit]

All a bit messy now really.

 

[gosub]

All a bit messy now really.

Not really. Its been entirely predictable (as it literally was by a fair few) which meant the system has largely been one move ahead of Trump's death throws

 

[MickiQ]

Why do you follow rw americans in the first place?

I've started following Trump since the election, I know it's wrong and probably rotting my brain but I can't help myself..

 

[SpineyNorman]

Is there a single thing that could happen now which would reduce the number of people who are utterly devoted to the trump cause?

Workers bomb

 

[Pickman's model]

Trying to avoid being a bubble and see what these people say to one another, not just 'my' people sardonically retweeting them to slag them off. It's illuminating but depressing.

Read the mail, they're less loopy and you get their gist