US election 2020 thread

[Yossarian]

Yeah, I suppose the distinction is between 2000 and 2020. In 2000, Bush won within the rules. It was a close run thing of recounts, hanging chads and court cases, but probably the 'correct' outcome. The bigger issue, was directly racist voter suppression in places like Florida. 2020 is the same game, taken further, with an annexe, add in a mezzanine floor, bend, pressure, lie... a trip round the circuit, but this time in the style of a Mad Max + Rollerball pursuit.

Yep, ordinary voter suppression wasn't enough this time around - Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state, was a good little Republican who focused on making it harder for Black people to vote, but his fellow Republicans now consider him one of the biggest traitors since Benedict Arnold because he balked at throwing out election results they didn't like.

Raffensperger, who bills himself as “the conservative who means it,” promises to make Georgia “safer”. Raising the unproven specter of undocumented immigrants stealing elections, which was the same scaremongering imagery Kemp floated during the gubernatorial campaign, Raffensperger promises to “strengthen voter ID” in Georgia so “that only legal American citizens should vote”. He won’t stop there, though. He also vows to continue to keep the voter rolls “clean”, which in conservative-ese means purge, purge, purge, ostensibly “to ensure that only legal citizens can vote”.

Georgia doesn't need another voter suppressor running its elections | Carol Anderson

Since 2007 the state’s voters have faced an onslaught on their rights. Instead of Brad Raffensperger as their new secretary of state, they need democracy

www.theguardian.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep, ordinary voter suppression wasn't enough this time around - Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state, was a good little Republican who focused on making it harder for Black people to vote, but his fellow Republicans now consider him one of the biggest traitors since Benedict Arnold because he balked at throwing out election results they didn't like.

Georgia doesn't need another voter suppressor running its elections | Carol Anderson

Since 2007 the state’s voters have faced an onslaught on their rights. Instead of Brad Raffensperger as their new secretary of state, they need democracy

www.theguardian.com

He also went to court just before this election in an attempt to prevent paper back-ups at polling stations in case computer systems broke down - a clear effort to make it harder to vote in the less well provisioned places that most black people vote in.

Republicans should be very worried. Their best pre-election efforts were thwarted in Georgia and this post-election stuff doesn't work.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Giuliani has named Wayne County several times now as a centre of corruption. They are obviously using it to cause distress among people of colour and cause a reaction. Possibly causing chaos in the streets of Detroit. This is the Trump administration declaring how utterly racist they are and their desire to disrupt any attempts at healing the divisions he has deliberately caused. Any Republican senators or representatives who does not grow a spine and remove all support from and resists this cabal, should be charged with conspiracy and jailed.

And if it means Black voters on the streets, that would suit them fine and plays into the race war undercurrent they’re stirring up

I've wondered about that too. True loyalists will manage to flick the switch and start seeing fox as the enemy or even part of the quanon thing if that's what they are told next. But for others there might be a recognition of the rabbit hole they are hurtling down, or at least a gnawing sense of 'wtf'.

Unless it just means that Fox has been fixed, see how fiercely determined the baddies are, coming after the only MSM outlet you could previously trust!

 

[bimble]

I just watched this and it cheered me up.
Am aware of the sneery look at the funny animals in the zoo vibes but still, if these are at all representative of the hardcore believers that is sort of reassuring because epic stupidity whilst disturbing is not really that scary.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I just watched this and it cheered me up.
Am aware of the sneery look at the funny animals in the zoo vibes but still, if these are at all representative of the hardcore believers that is sort of reassuring because epic stupidity whilst disturbing is not really that scary.

I’m sorry to say that I can’t agree with this.

Dis educated people are potentially a very powerful constituancy. Easy to manipulate with lies and disinformation; and incredibly loyal to those who profess to take them seriously and champion them.

There’s a reason tyrants like Trump seek to appeal to people who are less likely to check facts etc.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Having said that, I’m cheered that only 20,000 people gathered in Washington for the demo.

Although they came from as far away from Florida, Seattle, Los Angeles, it was a pretty small crowd.


ETA I’m also reassured that when asked, they don’t really know why they believe the election wasn’t stolen/rigged. They just believe it, or “have a feeling”. So no robust scaffolded or foundations.

 

[bimble]

What exactly could those people in the video actually realistically do though with serious consequences - even if there are 30 million of them?
(not a rhetorical question, i'm trying to cheer myself up with this idea they're not as dangerous when you realise that maybe the common thread is inabilily / unwillingness to think).
Maybe they have always been with us, just used to be mainly about religious devotion.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Having said that, I’m cheered that only 20,000 people gathered in Washington for the demo.

Although they came from as far away from Florida, Seattle, Los Angeles, it was a pretty small crowd.


ETA I’m also reassured that when asked, they don’t really know why they believe the election wasn’t stolen/rigged. They just believe it, or “have a feeling”. So no robust scaffolded or foundations.

As a side note, it strikes me that the whole bullshit circus that came out of the 90s about The Secret is playing into this too: if you want something badly enough if you wish hard enough, if you have faith in it, it will come to pass.


Trump himself buys into this bullshit, which is one of the reasons he’s not giving any head space to the idea that he’s lost.

 

[bimble]

Yep, it makes sense that so many of the really ardent people i've seen online lately talk about prayer (for trump's victory over evil etc) a lot. Magical thinking.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What exactly could those people in the video actually realistically do though with serious consequences - even if there are 30 million of them?
(not a rhetorical question, i'm trying to cheer myself up with this idea they're not as dangerous when you realise that maybe the common thread is inabilily / unwillingness to think).
Maybe they have always been with us, just used to be mainly about religious devotion.

If there are 30 million of them, they could do all sorts of things. But there are levels to the belief, aren't there. So let's say for sake of argument that there are currently 30 million Americans who, when asked a poll, will say that they think the election was not fairly run and that the result is illegitimate. That's possible, and it feels like an alarming number. But what proportion of that 30 million is burning with rage about it? How many are just badly informed people who would mouth off in the pub about it but actually are paying little attention and certainly aren't prepared to do anything about it?

It's worth remembering that there was a poll following the 2016 election in which 35% of Republican voters believed that elections were rigged. There are tens of millions of Americans who think it's all a con all the time, even when 'their guy' wins.

It's a bit like what you said before about naive rationalism. If you actually believe this, how come you're not doing stuff about it? Well truth is that they don't hold the belief all that seriously. Bit like the many religious believers who are totally untroubled by the contradictions between the belief they say they have and the way they live their lives. The fundamentalists are the serious believers in that sense, but they're a small minority of total believers, thankfully.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

What exactly could those people in the video actually realistically do though with serious consequences - even if there are 30 million of them?
(not a rhetorical question, i'm trying to cheer myself up with this idea they're not as dangerous when you realise that maybe the common thread is inabilily / unwillingness to think).
Maybe they have always been with us, just used to be mainly about religious devotion.

They themselves hold no power. But as a pawn in the game they can become powerful. If you can get enough people to swallow the lie, you can use sheer force of numbers as a bulldozer. Fortunately, there are (so far as we know.... it’s never been tested before...) sufficient checks and balances within the system to block that bulldozer.

But this huge gaping chasm has been opened in American society now, and unscrupulous manipulators will easily and happily exploit that to their own ends in the future.

Trump may be a busted flush and despite making noises about 2024 I reckon he won’t be able to wait that long for his narcissistic supply: he’ll be onto something else pretty sharpish. But there will be a smarter smoother shinier version playing the game by then.


I think you’re right about this being a kind of religious fervour, and taking the place of religion. (I wrote a bit about this is the QAnon thread)

 

[SheilaNaGig]

A brief round up of what Trump is facing

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

If there are 30 million of them, they could do all sorts of things. But there are levels to the belief, aren't there. So let's say for sake of argument that there are currently 30 million Americans who, when asked a poll, will say that they think the election was not fairly run and that the result is illegitimate. That's possible, and it feels like an alarming number. But what proportion of that 30 million is burning with rage about it? How many are just badly informed people who would mouth off in the pub about it but actually are paying little attention and certainly aren't prepared to do anything about it?

It's worth remembering that there was a poll following the 2016 election in which 35% of Republican voters believed that elections were rigged. There are tens of millions of Americans who think it's all a con all the time, even when 'their guy' wins.

It's a bit like what you said before about naive rationalism. If you actually believe this, how come you're not doing stuff about it? Well truth is that they don't hold the belief all that seriously. Bit like the many religious believers who are totally untroubled by the contradictions between the belief they say they have and the way they live their lives. The fundamentalists are the serious believers in that sense, but they're a small minority of total believers, thankfully.

To be honest at the less crazy end - the sort of thing that probably comes through strongly in a survey - something like that is not a million miles from an 'all politicians are liars' type of feeling. Which would be a pretty common view on here and certainly not one that would get you classed as a conspiracy theorist.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

And here’s Seth Meyers taking the piss out of yesterday’s press conference. Skip to 3’20” to miss the vaccine stuff. Then it’s general stuff about the elections, Wayne county etc. The stuff about yesterday’s press conference starts at 10’16”

 

[SheilaNaGig]

To be honest at the less crazy end - the sort of thing that probably comes through strongly in a survey - something like that is not a million miles from an 'all politicians are liars' type of feeling. Which would be a pretty common view on here and certainly not one that would get you classed as a conspiracy theorist.

And another thing that takes the heat out of it is that American voters know there will be another election in less than five years, and any president can only stay in office for two terms.

 

[killer b]

This is fun -Trump allegations of fraud in Michigan are based on figures taken from towns in Minnesota.

Do Trump's Lawyers Know What They Are Doing?

Today several of President Trump's lawyers, including Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell, held a press conference in which they alleged that they have convincing if not conclusive evidence that the presidential election was rigged, and that in addition to garden variety voter fraud, hundreds of...

www.powerlineblog.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

On a side note, it is now 16 days since the election. How the fuck is it that some states are still counting?

Biden currently 5.98 million ahead in the popular vote.

 

[two sheds]

And here’s Seth Meyers taking the piss out of yesterday’s press conference. Skip to 3’20” to miss the vaccine stuff. Then it’s general stuff about the elections, Wayne county etc. The stuff about yesterday’s press conference starts at 10’16”

Sporadically enlightening until 11 minutes when actually talks about Giuliani. I liked at the end though "Can we just call this a coup now? ... Just it doesn't succeed because everyone involved is a moron doesn't make it any less horrifying".

 

[kabbes]

totally untroubled by the contradictions between the belief they say they have and the way they live their lives.

Something that belongs to the class of concepts I have recently found out is called “cognitive polyphasia” — the way people use different and potentially quite contradictory systems of understanding in different contexts. Another example is the way people will go to the NHS for diagnosis of a condition and then to an alternative medicine practitioner to treat it.

 

[inva]

I just watched this and it cheered me up.
Am aware of the sneery look at the funny animals in the zoo vibes but still, if these are at all representative of the hardcore believers that is sort of reassuring because epic stupidity whilst disturbing is not really that scary.

Did you really think it was epic stupidity? Most people look incoherent when put on the spot by someone setting out to make them seem that way - the right does it too it's all over youtube etc some smug prick destroying libs or whatever, it's shit.

 

[bimble]

Did you really think it was epic stupidity? Most people look incoherent when put on the spot by someone setting out to make them seem that way - the right does it too it's all over youtube etc some smug prick destroying libs or whatever, it's shit.

How do you understand people who adamantly believe something with no evidence at all and refuse to lift a finger to find out if they’re being lied to? Maybe not stupidity just force of will but if they actually wanted to know it would take them seconds.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Sporadically enlightening until 11 minutes when actually talks about Giuliani. I liked at the end though "Can we just call this a coup now? ... Just it doesn't succeed because everyone involved is a moron doesn't make it any less horrifying".

That’s why I added in the time info, so you can skip to the relevant bit.





I quite like this channel as a source of facts for context. His voice is kinda irritating though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Something that belongs to the class of concepts I have recently found out is called “cognitive polyphasia” — the way the same people will use different and potentially quite contradictory systems of understanding in different contexts.

Good new term to know. It strikes me that it takes serious effort not to be like that.

 

[xenon]

Can someone please remind me of the website / twitter account which summarises the progress in court cases Trump's team are attempting to bring.

Ta.

 

[kabbes]

Good new term to know. It strikes me that it takes serious effort not to be like that.

It came from me learning about social representation theory — if you’ve not come across that then look it up because I honestly think you’d love it. A “representation” is a system of knowledge that people use to orient themselves in the world and communicate with others, and they are inherently sociocultural constructs. But we now live in a crazy mixed up world giving us multiple representations of the same phenomena. How these things sometimes conflict and sometimes just get used side by side is quite fascinating. (I edited to add an example about medicine in my earlier post, by the way).

 

[inva]

How do you understand people who adamantly believe something with no evidence at all and refuse to lift a finger to find out if they’re being lied to? Maybe not stupidity just force of will but if they actually wanted to know it would take them seconds.

The interviewer in that clip seemed to want them to reel off a list of proof as if they'd have it to hand, he had no interest in understanding them and no one's going to come any closer to understanding them from watching stuff like that. The whole intention is to make them incomprehensible. But I don't think sheer stupidity is a very good explanation for how Trump has effectively played on distrust of the media, or for the ways people get drawn into closed loops of conspiratorial stuff on the internet for example. If you watch some of the endless videos of liberals being lost for words or getting incoherently angry on youtube you'll get a similar impression.

And let's face it, for all the talk about looking for evidence or finding out if you're being lied to how many of us actually do any of that? Don't we all just lazily repeat shit off social media without checking if it's true? I do, and it accounts for about half the content on this forum so I'm guessing everyone else does too.

 

[krtek a houby]

How do you understand people who adamantly believe something with no evidence at all and refuse to lift a finger to find out if they’re being lied to? Maybe not stupidity just force of will but if they actually wanted to know it would take them seconds.

Ever spent time arguing with a Trump supporter? Those that I have traded opinions with are steadfast in their conviction. The march on DC was 2 million and BLM have killed and bombed over 50 cops... that kind of thing. And nothing - nothing - you say will change their minds.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Ever spent time arguing with a Trump supporter? Those that I have traded opinions with are steadfast in their conviction. The march on DC was 2 million and BLM have killed and bombed over 50 cops... that kind of thing. And nothing - nothing - you say will change their minds.

Pretty much. I argued one friend to ground and he finally admitted that he believed it "because it sounded true and he wanted to."

 

[xenon]

How do you understand people who adamantly believe something with no evidence at all and refuse to lift a finger to find out if they’re being lied to? Maybe not stupidity just force of will but if they actually wanted to know it would take them seconds.

Haven't watched that. But people need an incentive to fact check, to go beyond taking at face value of information they're presented with. Going back to that press conference last night, what if I were a republican voter, would have been my incentive to check out what they're saying. That's my team, I might not like some of the players but being called thick, racist or whatever, by the other side isn't going to send me on a fact finding quest to undermine the camp I'm in. Where's the benefit to me. It will make me feel like I've been mugged off, stupid and losing face, to the other side. I don't care about the sanctity of the system persay. Everyone thinks it's against them anyway. The swamp, rich republicans talking about elites etc.

I still don't have a problem with calling morons, morons but if trying to understand their motivation needs a bit more.

 

[Dogsauce]

Can someone please remind me of the website / twitter account which summarises the progress in court cases Trump's team are attempting to bring.

Ta.

this ‘feed’ or whatever it is called aggregates a lot of twitter election commentators, though not limited to the court cases, but plenty of interesting paths to follow:

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/lists/780488164297338880