US disregards diplomatic protocol, humiliates India's deputy consul general

[camouflage]

Yeah that's how the economy works...

Also take into consideration the US populace, that is a drain on their power, they ain't going to go fighting no mass imperial war anytime soon without massive social upheaval that threatens entrenched power.

They don't have to really, US naval dominance ensures they could shut China down just by rocking up and standing on its windpipe.

im baffled as to what you think i mistake for the laws of physics itself...

We live in a world shaped profoundly by American dominance, you even said yourself that we live under capitalism... that's the order the US has imposed, with itself at the center. You have mistaken the way the United States wants things to work for something like thermodynamics. Understandable really as you've lived all your life in Sams world so it's all you know (me too obviously).

China didn't create the rules but has been able to profit by them. Challenging the rules though is a matter for super-powers, the US could conceivably break the rules if it chose to, and the Sovjet Union managed to exist by its own rules for a while. However China isn't a super-power, they work hard and build lots of factories and produce lots of consumer goods (primarily at the behest of US capital) and are able play the current system to their own advantage. They are not in a position to challenge the rules of international capital, a serious economic slow-down in China under the current order would be an existential threat for the Chinese State. For the United States it would basically mean more expensive iPads. China won't be treated like an Indian ambassadors home-help by the US it's true, but they need this job. On the other hand nobody's in a position to cavity-search the US.

Let's review the situation in fifty years.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They don't have to really, US naval dominance ensures they could shut China down just by rocking up and standing on its windpipe..

A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected, The Washington Times has learned.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/nov/13/20061113-121539-3317r/?page=all

 

[camouflage]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/nov/13/20061113-121539-3317r/?page=all

Yes... in a confrontation the US would suffer some casualties.

 

[revol68]

They don't have to really, US naval dominance ensures they could shut China down just by rocking up and standing on its windpipe.



We live in a world shaped profoundly by American dominance, you even said yourself that we live under capitalism... that's the order the US has imposed, with itself at the center. You have mistaken the way the United States wants things to work for something like thermodynamics. Understandable really as you've lived all your life in Sams world so it's all you know (me too obviously).

China didn't create the rules but has been able to profit by them. Challenging the rules though is a matter for super-powers, the US could conceivably break the rules if it chose to, and the Sovjet Union managed to exist by its own rules for a while. However China isn't a super-power, they work hard and build lots of factories and produce lots of consumer goods (primarily at the behest of US capital) and are able play the current system to their own advantage. They are not in a position to challenge the rules of international capital, a serious economic slow-down in China under the current order would be an existential threat for the Chinese State. For the United States it would basically mean more expensive iPads. China won't be treated like an Indian ambassadors home-help by the US it's true, but they need this job. On the other hand nobody's in a position to cavity-search the US.

Let's review the situation in fifty years.

Yes capitalism, that system imposed by the united states...

the irony of you suggesting it is me that mistakes US hegemony as akin to thermodynamics... christ

 

[likesfish]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/nov/13/20061113-121539-3317r/?page=all

Thats more a cheeky stunt than a genuine capability bit like how the US navy fighters lost in exercises against he indian air force.
Or the Uk will lose the falklands to argentine kayaking commandos or something.
Wouldnt put it pass US navy admirals,pla admirals and the jsdf admirals meeting up somewhere so they can all justify the next ten years of budget increases

 

[phildwyer]

Also take into consideration the US populace, that is a drain on their power, they ain't going to go fighting no mass imperial war anytime soon without massive social upheaval that threatens entrenched power.

That's what Saddam Hussein said.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Thats more a cheeky stunt than a genuine capability

Getting a submarine into the middle of a US battle group, within torpedo range of an aircraft carrier, undetected until the sub surfaces, is a genuine capability.

 

[isvicthere?]

So, two former colonies get into a ridiculous infantile spat?

Wouldn't have happened when "we" ran the show.

Jolly good, stiff upper lip &c. &c. &c.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

We live in a world shaped profoundly by American dominance, you even said yourself that we live under Capitalism... that's the order the US has imposed, with itself at the center. .

Um, no. Capitalism was around before the US became a superpower. Adam Smith certainly wasn't an American. We merely took advantage of its rules, as you're suggesting the China has. In fact, we wouldn't have become a superpower without Europe spectacularly immoliating itself with two wars.

China may not be a superpower yet, but its reached a point where they're the only ones with the ability to stop it. I can see some internal issues preventing it, but there's no external ones.

BTW, I also see India on the track to be a superpower. They're starting to make the investments in infrastructure that lead to greater economic and political power. They, however, have a longer way to go. If China implodes, India will likely step up.

 

[peterkro]

They don't have to really, US naval dominance ensures they could shut China down just by rocking up and standing on its windpipe.

The Chinese amongst other stuff has the DF-21D, as late as 2009 the U.S. navy has stated they have no defence against it.

 

[Sirena]

Getting a submarine into the middle of a US battle group, within torpedo range of an aircraft carrier, undetected until the sub surfaces, is a genuine capability.

There was a UK submariner on telly the other day, telling how they scouted out a brand new Russian aircraft carrier and its capabilities by coming within 12 feet of its hull. I can't see how they could do that.....

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

BTW, I also see India on the track to be a superpower. They're starting to make the investments in infrastructure that lead to greater economic and political power. They, however, have a longer way to go. If China implodes, India will likely step up.

Harder for India: it doesn't have a centrally-directed economy. Also, the Chinese have always seen themselves as being the world's preeminent culture, with the past 200 years being a temporary aberration. I don't think the Indian culture shares that affectation.

 

[camouflage]

Um, no. Capitalism was around before the US became a superpower. Adam Smith certainly wasn't an American. We merely took advantage of its rules, as you're suggesting the China has. In fact, we wouldn't have become a superpower without Europe spectacularly immoliating itself with two wars.

I'm talking about the Bretton-Woods system that came about when the United States won the Second world War after the Sovjet defeat of Nazi Germany: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system

My fault, the way I constructed that sentence was imprecise to what I meant, obviously the US did not invent capitalism itself. But this arrangement (with the United States effectively at the center) pretty much defines how the global economic system was developed and maintained (and in the 70's transformed) over the last 70 years, wouldn't you agree?

China may not be a superpower yet, but its reached a point where they're the only ones with the ability to stop it. I can see some internal issues preventing it, but there's no external ones.

BTW, I also see India on the track to be a superpower. They're starting to make the investments in infrastructure that lead to greater economic and political power. They, however, have a longer way to go. If China implodes, India will likely step up.

I think you still mean Major Power, perhaps even Great Power. A Super Power is a different class still. China does not have anything near the global reach or influence to be called a Super Power even on approach. Besides which becoming a Super Power means those 'internal issues preventing it' are some pretty major barriers toward Super Powerdom, in my opinion it's like saying "Sure, I can become world heavyweight championship boxer, there is the matter of chronic back-pain and the fact I'am allergic to boxing gloves that could conceivably stop me but those are just details". That kind of misses the point I think. China's internal issues would be a major barrier to overcome even if it was on it's way to SPdom or had the political will that is a necessary component of that direction.

Anyway, China's been the biggest deal in the world of nations for longer than any other nation, it's never needed to be a Super Power before, just by sitting there being China (teeming millions, incredible wealth, advanced since back in the day and at times at the technological forefront in a serious way) the world has always come to China in the past. That last bit particularly represented by the flow of gold to China since Roman times apparently, all that Spanish-stolen Aztec gold is said to have ended up in China, the British super power started a drug-pusher war in a desperate attempt to claw back the silver flowing out of their empire into Chinas immense economic gravity field. And the same thing happens today, even started to happen to spankling new forms of wealth analogous to gold like bitcoin.

In a way China has been and remains in a class of it's very own. Perhaps Super Powerdom is for flash-in-the-pan barbarian upstarts that need always to expand outwards before the inevitable collapse, like a clashing wave, or in this case a tsunami of US might on the world stage. China will still be there in a 1000 years I bet (barring zombie-apocalypse), not so sure the US will be though. Maybe 'super power' is just inherently unstable... the Mongols were a Super Power in their day, and they kicked China's arse all over the place in struggles of a scale and class unseen anywhere else on the planet at the time. But where is the Mongol superpower now?

China's not becoming a super power, it's just becoming more China.

 

[yield]

Harder for India: it doesn't have a centrally-directed economy. Also, the Chinese have always seen themselves as being the world's preeminent culture, with the past 200 years being a temporary aberration. I don't think the Indian culture shares that affectation.

The argument is whether capitalism works "better" without democracy?

Protesters riot in China city over land sale
BBC News. 23 September 2011

There are tens of thousands of protests each year in China, some of which turn violent.

Many are triggered by local grievances, such as farmers being expelled from their land to make way for development.

 

[agricola]

In a way China has been and remains in a class of it's very own. Perhaps Super Powerdom is for flash-in-the-pan barbarian upstarts that need always to expand outwards before the inevitable collapse, like a clashing wave, or in this case a tsunami of US might on the world stage. China will still be there in a 1000 years I bet (barring zombie-apocalypse), not so sure the US will be though. Maybe 'super power' is just inherently unstable... the Mongols were a Super Power in their day, and they kicked China's arse all over the place in struggles of a scale and class unseen anywhere else on the planet at the time. But where is the Mongol superpower now?

That stability and its associated wealth has always been China's great weakness, though - not only because of the corrosive effect it has on the ruling classes throughout history, but also because of the attraction that the country has to nearly every rapacious "foriegn" group who happens to come across it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

all that Spanish-stolen Aztec gold is said to have ended up in China,.

Have you a reference for that?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the British super power started a drug-pusher war in a desperate attempt to claw back the silver flowing out of their empire into Chinas immense economic gravity field..

I've never heard that theory for the origins of the Opium Wars.

 

[camouflage]

Have you a reference for that?

Not that I can link to or recall

But it makes sense, the Spanish didn't really profit from all their ill-gotten gains, they spunked it all on military expenditures for their numerous over-extended campaigns in Europe so the money ended up in the hands of English and Dutch bankers, from where it found it's way to being exchanged for all that mega-tonnage of Chinese goodness, like tea. that's the theory anyway, I welcome any links about this if someone knows one, as I'd like to dig deeper too.

However what is googlable is that Roman coins have been found in China dating from way back, even though the two civilizations never formally met. Gold, Silver, T-Bills, Bitcoin, all a case of follow the money along the Silk Road I guess.

 

[camouflage]

I've never heard that theory for the origins of the Opium Wars.

Tbh I thought was that this is generally accepted.

Comes down to balance of trade: the Brits brought loads of stuff from China (like tea) but the Chinese wanted pretty much fuck all from the empire. So the silver (the literal pounds of Stirling) flew to China while the tea flowed in the over direction, denuding the empire of silver to splurge on other things... meaning silver deflation on the UK side of things. As a result the Brits were quite keen on having the Chinese buy massive amounts of opium that they produced in British India, as a means to pull back and restore the balance of trade.

Prolly also the Brits felt the busy millions of China could do with being fucked up on drugs some because... well you know, "Big Scary China, look at their inscrutable faces, who knows what they're really up to... get em feckless on dope is probably the safest bet, opium is the opium of the people" etc, wouldn't be surprised.

 

[agricola]

Comes down to balance of trade: the Brits brought loads of stuff from China (like tea) but the Chinese wanted pretty much fuck all from the empire. So the silver (the literal pounds of Stirling) flew to China while the tea flowed in the over direction, denuding the empire of silver to splurge on other things... meaning silver deflation on the UK side of things. As a result the Brits were quite keen on having the Chinese buy massive amounts of opium that they produced in British India, as a means to pull back and restore the balance of trade.

Not sure how much of an effect the China trade actually had on the overall economy - whilst in the accounts of the EIC the balance of payments for that trade alone would look horrible (as you say the money was all flowing one way), it does tend to ignore the fact that the goods brought back from China were sold domestically and on the European market, usually at a profit (gaining specie back that way), and (though this is thanks to the national debt as well) they were almost always able to fund more trips, as well as several global wars (including paying vast subsidies to allies in those wars), build the most effective Navy in the world and expand the Empire to the point that much of the world was pink.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26554245

Charges dropped.

 

[newbie]

The work done by our foreign affairs ministry is admirable," Mr Khobragade told BBC Hindi.

dropped because of pressure over diplomatic immunity not because of lack of evidence.

a simple stitch up as someone powerful is protected and someone weak ignored

 

[Idris2002]

Not that I can link to or recall

But it makes sense, the Spanish didn't really profit from all their ill-gotten gains, they spunked it all on military expenditures for their numerous over-extended campaigns in Europe so the money ended up in the hands of English and Dutch bankers, from where it found it's way to being exchanged for all that mega-tonnage of Chinese goodness, like tea. that's the theory anyway, I welcome any links about this if someone knows one, as I'd like to dig deeper too.

However what is googlable is that Roman coins have been found in China dating from way back, even though the two civilizations never formally met. Gold, Silver, T-Bills, Bitcoin, all a case of follow the money along the Silk Road I guess.

My understanding has always been that the gold looted from the New World passed into the general European economy, triggering a wave of inflation that lasted all through the sixteenth century, and which helped cause the political and social turbulence of that era. Quite possibly some of it would have gone on down the line to China, but I doubt if all of it would have.