Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Urban v's the Commentariat

Had it ever occurred to you that trans people might be telling the truth about how they experience their bodies and its not all a secret ruse to get free sex changes or politically legitimise transsexualism?

No one is saying they are lying about their experience, the issue is what are the causes of this experience.

Are atheists calling religious people liars?

Depressing that you take that from the discussion, so fucking backward.
 
Yes I followed the argument, it was a complete strawman which confused transgenderism as a whole with transsexuality and then added in some complete nonsense about medical funding
 
To be fair, I'm not sure as a society we are particularly close to understanding whether biology or sociology determine transgenderism, or even if its not a combination of the two, so perhaps not a topic either of you can offer a definitive answer on. Unless you think you can of course, in which case go for it.
 
Yeah, but by calling other people out, you get this thing known as a "boost to your ego", and some people trip on the power to do that.

Yeah, some people, but most of them probably only get a kick out of it cos they've genuinely ended up in a place where they believe they're helping.
 
nice to see you able to so comprehensively and convincingly deal with smokedout's point.

I'll give her a respectful response when she gives me the respect of actually reading my argument and not ignoring it for some offensive strawman.

In the mean time if you have any criticisms to make of my argument I'd be happy to hear them.
 
Whether its biological or social is erm academic. Whats more important is the material effects of these ideas on individuals and groups, each has been both liberating and coercive.

So the truth of something is academic and what matters is the perceived usefulness to particular individuals and groups?

What do you think are the effects of such an approach? I'd suggest they produce a politics of irrational relativism and the reduction of truth to an instrumentalist tool of power, not a good idea when you look at where power lies and who it serves in wider society.

Also the material effect of biological arguments for gender dysphoria is to reinforce essentialist ideas about sex and gender, ideas that have been central in justifying and reproducing sexism. This is the legitimate aspect of some radical feminists issue with aspects of trans politics, unfortunately some have used these legitimate concerns to justify rampant bigotry toward's trans people, for example this,

http://www.autostraddle.com/anti-tr...vatives-to-harass-colorado-trans-teen-201433/
 
Last edited:
Here's one I made earlier. Notes from:

Rathus, Spencer A., Nevid, Jeffrey S., and Fischner-Rathus, Lois, Human Sexuality in a World of Diversity, Allyn and Bacon, Boston, London, 2002 (1993)

1967 – one of a pair of male twins lost his penis in a circumcision accident. After undergoing gender reassignment surgery, he was – or so it seemed – “successfully reared as a girl”. The sequel: “at the age of 14, when “she” was informed about the circumcision accident and the process of gender reassignment, she immediately decided to pursue life as a male.”

These authors note another case, however, where an individual, again damaged by circumcision, was gender reassigned, but “in a follow-up at the age of 9, the individual was also tomboyish in behavior and personality traits, but considered herself a girl”. This individual grew to adulthood with the “self concept of being female” and engaged in bisexual activity, until forming a long-term “lesbian” relationship with a woman.

They go on to cite the fascinating consequences of “cloacal exstrophy” a rare medical condition in which individuals are born with “normal testicles, male sex chromosomal structure, and male sex hormones” – but are also born without a penis. In a case of several of these individuals surgically castrated and reared as girls they consistently reported male gender identity, which Marianne J. Legato ascribes to the effects of testosterone.

“How can we sort out the roles of nature and nurture, of biology and the environment?” By turning to cases of pseudohermaphroditism – perhaps. Unlike cases of true hermaphroditism, which are extremely rare, the condition of pseudohermaphroditism affects about one individual in every thousand. The individuals “possess the gonads of one gender but external genitalia that are ambiguous or typical of the other gender”. (177)

This comes about, e.g. via androgenital syndrome where a female may have internal female sexual organs, but “masculinized” genitalia. This is due to overexposure to androgen. Then there is androgen-insenstivity syndrome, where males with a mutated gene have lower-than-normal prenatal sensitivity to androgens. “At birth their external genitals are feminized , including a small vagina and their testes are undescended.”

Then there is Dominican Republic Syndrome, named after the country where the first cases were described. This is a form of pseudo-hermaphroditism in which a genetic enzyme disorder prevents testostroene from masculinizing the external genitalia. (177). “Their penises were stunted and resembled clitorises. Their scrotums were incompletely formed and resembled female labia. They also had partially formed vaginas”.

“The boys with Dominican Republic syndrome also resembled girls at birth and were reared as females. At puberty, however, their testes swung into normal testosterone production, causing startling changes: the testes descended, their voices deepened, their musculature filled out, and their “clitorises” expanded into penises. Of the 18 boys who were reared as girls, 17 shifted to a male gender identity. Sixteen of the 18 assumed a stereotypical masculine gender role. Of the remaining 2, 1 adopted a male gender identity but continued to maintain a feminine gender role, including wearing dresses. The other maintained a female gender identity, and later sought gender-reassignment surgery to “correct” the pubertal masculinization” (178- 179: these authors are citing Money, J., and Ehrhardt, A., Man and Woman, boy and girl, 1972, Baltimore MD, The Johns Hopkins University Press)

TL; DR: there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
 
I'll give her a respectful response when she gives me the respect of actually reading my argument and not ignoring it for some offensive strawman.

In the mean time if you have any criticisms to make of my argument I'd be happy to hear them.
calling people cretins doesn't advance your argument
 
Here's one I made earlier. Notes from:

Rathus, Spencer A., Nevid, Jeffrey S., and Fischner-Rathus, Lois, Human Sexuality in a World of Diversity, Allyn and Bacon, Boston, London, 2002 (1993)

1967 – one of a pair of male twins lost his penis in a circumcision accident. After undergoing gender reassignment surgery, he was – or so it seemed – “successfully reared as a girl”. The sequel: “at the age of 14, when “she” was informed about the circumcision accident and the process of gender reassignment, she immediately decided to pursue life as a male.”

These authors note another case, however, where an individual, again damaged by circumcision, was gender reassigned, but “in a follow-up at the age of 9, the individual was also tomboyish in behavior and personality traits, but considered herself a girl”. This individual grew to adulthood with the “self concept of being female” and engaged in bisexual activity, until forming a long-term “lesbian” relationship with a woman.

They go on to cite the fascinating consequences of “cloacal exstrophy” a rare medical condition in which individuals are born with “normal testicles, male sex chromosomal structure, and male sex hormones” – but are also born without a penis. In a case of several of these individuals surgically castrated and reared as girls they consistently reported male gender identity, which Marianne J. Legato ascribes to the effects of testosterone.

“How can we sort out the roles of nature and nurture, of biology and the environment?” By turning to cases of pseudohermaphroditism – perhaps. Unlike cases of true hermaphroditism, which are extremely rare, the condition of pseudohermaphroditism affects about one individual in every thousand. The individuals “possess the gonads of one gender but external genitalia that are ambiguous or typical of the other gender”. (177)

This comes about, e.g. via androgenital syndrome where a female may have internal female sexual organs, but “masculinized” genitalia. This is due to overexposure to androgen. Then there is androgen-insenstivity syndrome, where males with a mutated gene have lower-than-normal prenatal sensitivity to androgens. “At birth their external genitals are feminized , including a small vagina and their testes are undescended.”

Then there is Dominican Republic Syndrome, named after the country where the first cases were described. This is a form of pseudo-hermaphroditism in which a genetic enzyme disorder prevents testostroene from masculinizing the external genitalia. (177). “Their penises were stunted and resembled clitorises. Their scrotums were incompletely formed and resembled female labia. They also had partially formed vaginas”.

“The boys with Dominican Republic syndrome also resembled girls at birth and were reared as females. At puberty, however, their testes swung into normal testosterone production, causing startling changes: the testes descended, their voices deepened, their musculature filled out, and their “clitorises” expanded into penises. Of the 18 boys who were reared as girls, 17 shifted to a male gender identity. Sixteen of the 18 assumed a stereotypical masculine gender role. Of the remaining 2, 1 adopted a male gender identity but continued to maintain a feminine gender role, including wearing dresses. The other maintained a female gender identity, and later sought gender-reassignment surgery to “correct” the pubertal masculinization” (178- 179: these authors are citing Money, J., and Ehrhardt, A., Man and Woman, boy and girl, 1972, Baltimore MD, The Johns Hopkins University Press)

TL; DR: there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

None of that negates the social basis for gender dysphoria, rather intersex shows the problem of forcing people into gender binaries, of the expectation that someone should be raised as a boy or a girl based on sexed bodies. Intersex is only "problematic" from a societal perspective, kind of how autism/aspergers is a "condition" because of the social problems people with "non typical neurology" encounter. Infact there is a small but growing movement of intersex people demanding an end to surgery on intersex children to make their bodies fit one sex or the other, that is that their bodies aren't treated as a problem to be solved.


The argument that gender dysphoria is a social matter doesn't deny the fact there is biological basis in many cases, rather it is how this biology interacts with societal factors, so we shouldn't be surprised that women with more typically "male" neurology might be more likely to experience gender dysphoria than those with typically "female" neurology.
 
Last edited:
of course there's going to be some biological aspect to this, you are after all dealing with living beings - and biology is...

where do you think biology ends and sociology begins?
 
of course there's going to be some biological aspect to this, you are after all dealing with living beings - and biology is...

where do you think biology ends and sociology begins?

well done you have shown your completely inability to comprehend the argument, have a biscuit.
 
Also just to make clear there are trans people who reject the attempts to root trans in biology, in some pre societal mismatch/conflict/disorder in the body.

Sass Rogando Sasot said:
“I am not trapped by my body. I am trapped by your beliefs. And I want to reclaim this body from those who want it to breathe and be fed by their dogmas.”
 
there is at least one poster on here who is intersex, and given that about 1 in 100 people are there must be more, would be interesting hearing what they think about the whole gender dysphoria debate

personally if someone wants to have gender assignment surgery, i don't see a problem with it tbh, although there is a good point about why they need to have surgery in the first place ... why society forces this stuff on people ...
 
None of that negates the social basis for gender dysphoria, rather intersex shows the problem of forcing people into gender binaries, of the expectation that someone should be raised as a boy or a girl based on sexed bodies. Intersex is only "problematic" from a societal perspective, kind of how autism/aspergers is a "condition" because of the social problems people with "non typical neurology" encounter. Infact there is a small but growing movement of intersex people demanding an end to surgery on intersex children to make their bodies fit one sex or the other, that is that their bodies aren't treated as a problem to be solved.


The argument that gender dysphoria is a social matter doesn't deny the fact there is biological basis in many cases, rather it is how this biology interacts with societal factors, so we shouldn't be surprised that women with more typically "male" neurology might be more likely to experience gender dysphoria than those with typically "female" neurology.

there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

:D

Btw, could you tone down the aggression just a tad? That too - just like gender dysphoria - is a social matter.
 
Here's the whole speech from Sass Roganda Sasot, well worth a read

http://www.transgenderasia.org/sass-wronged-body.htm

I understand that an explanation of our existence by some expert opinion can be our lifeline against the different forms of violence and discrimination wielded against us by those who are disturbed by our existence. There are different scientific and religious theories that have been offered to explain us. I find that all of them seem to revolve around that famous statement that “We were born in the wrong body” or its other form “Trapped in the wrong body”.

For us transsexual people, this statement has been a convenient explanation to make people understand why we live with a gender that does not match the gender associated with the genitals we were born with. However, the realization that “I am born with the wrong body” and the action one takes in order to “right this wrong body” cannot be divorced from the traditional beliefs about how a female or male body should look like. We live in our bodies and our bodies live in a particular society. The moment we stand naked in front of the mirror, the reflection that we’re seeing is not necessarily being seen by naked eyes for our eyes are adorned by the conditioning of our societies. We were conditioned to consider those who were born with or do have vaginas and breasts as girls and women while those who were born with or do have penises as boys and men.

I identify and live my life as a woman, I look at myself in the mirror and I see a penis and a flat chest. How do I convince you that I am a woman? By feeling wrong about it? By hating the genitals I was born with as well as the body my puberty sculpted? By feeling trapped in this body? By transforming this body so that it can resemble the form of your woman? But is this body really wrong? What made it wrong? Who made it wrong? God? Scientists? Politicians? Theorists? Or me?

I am a human being inhabiting a transsexual body. Why am I inhabiting this body is a question that I cannot answer. I know that some dare to answer it by virtue of their whims, religious beliefs, scientific research, or various theoretical discussions. Yet what is the point of subjecting the existence of people like us under the microscope of various opinions? We exist, therefore we are and we do not need to prove and justify why we exist in order to be.

I am a human being who is neither in a wrong body nor trapped in a wrong body but a human being who is expressing her beingness in one of the various forms of the human body. I am not in a wrong body. I am in this body just like how you are in your body. I am not trapped by my body. I am trapped by your beliefs. And I want to reclaim this body from those who want it to breathe and be fed by their dogmas.e existence of people like us under the microscope of various opinions? We exist, therefore we are and we do not need to prove and justify why we exist in order to be.
 
Last edited:
there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

:D

Btw, could you tone down the aggression just a tad? That too - just like gender dysphoria - is a social matter.

I'm just getting peeved at peoples misreadings, I mean I'd appreciate if you could make the argument as to how what you posted counters anything I've been saying?
 
I'm just getting peeved at peoples misreadings, I mean I'd appreciate if you could make the argument as to how what you posted counters anything I've been saying?

What makes you think it was intended to counter anything you've been saying?
 
What makes you think it was intended to counter anything you've been saying?

the more things in heaven comment, maybe I'm being defensive because people have been misreading me (in good and bad faith) but I read it as a reiteration of the argument "you never know it could be a biological pre societal condition", which I argued was really just an attemp to shore up biological essentialist explanations in much the same way religious people revert to "you never know".
 
It's funny how biology supposedly interacts with social matters in revol's picture of things, yet rarely if ever seems to have a real causal stake in anything. Even more ironic considering the supposed material basis of Marxist theory.
 
It's funny how biology supposedly interacts with social matters in revol's picture of things, yet rarely if ever seems to have a real causal stake in anything. Even more ironic considering the supposed material basis of Marxist theory.

You mistake Marx's materialism for the crude kind, which is exactly what he was rejecting.

I also pointing out how biology can have a causal effect on the experience of gender dysphoria, but the it is a causal effect mediated through society. Christ I was even willing to provisionally accept the shaky claims of "sexed" brains to do so.

I can't believe I'm going to recommend someone read Judith Butler but I think you should.
 
You mistake Marx's materialism for the crude kind, which is exactly what he was rejecting.

I also pointing out how biology can have a causal effect on the experience of gender dysphoria, but the it is a causal effect mediated through society. Christ I was even willing to provisionally accept the shaky claims of "sexed" brains to do so.

I can't believe I'm going to recommend someone read Judith Butler but I think you should.
I bloody knew it :D
 
Back
Top Bottom