Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-25
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
All my life's difficulties pale into insignificance compared to trying to get something resembling sense or political analysis from your single line posts. I'm starting to think you might not actually be a human but some kind of old and malfunctioning SWP aligned computer bot.
editor
hiraethified
That's way out of fucking line and you know it.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
LDC just ignore the one-line trolls. It only feeds him. Occasionally there's some real content to engage with there, so I don't have him on ignore or anything, but trying to respond rationally to worthless sound bites simply encourages more of the same. Everyone does it sometimes, but it really, really shouldn't generate responses or you end up with a wrinkly sort of pre-school. That goes for all of us.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Another warning received for inappropriate behaviour on this thread. It’s getting ridiculous frankly that the train set owner here throws these ridiculous warnings about whilst dishing out the shit themselves. Like a little kid who brought the ball to school insisting on fixing the score.
Previously the warning was for abuse. Any rational assessment can see I have had it thrown at me more than I have dished it out.
Anyway I have put the fat controller back on ignore.
Previously the warning was for abuse. Any rational assessment can see I have had it thrown at me more than I have dished it out.
Anyway I have put the fat controller back on ignore.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Oh please
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
You troll, TC. It's not banned here, but you can't expect a red carpet welcome for living under a bridge. You're right that we all do it sometimes, but you're particularly egregious in this one thread. Take your lumps over it, you'd have been threadbanned in other fora I visit a long time ago.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I’ve emailed the embassy to remind him to log on here first before tweeting .
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Perun on the topic of how wars & conflicts end, not Ukraine specific but a look at the theory of 'conflict termination' which I'd never heard of until today. No knowledge to comment in depth, but an interesting listen imo.
en.wikipedia.org
War termination - Wikipedia
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
editor
hiraethified
You were taking the piss out of someone's mental health. That is unacceptable. If you wish to moan further, take it to the feedback forum and see what the other mods think, but won't be engaging with you on this topic in this thread any further.
Flavour
hang the bankers
believe in the justness of Ukraine's self-defense in the face of Russian invasion and all the war crimes that have come with it =
war mongering. armchair generals, fantasists, imperialists, NATO fans, liberals
believing in the justness of Ukraine accepting defeat, loss of 20% of their territory, and appeasing the Putin regime = morally righteous anti-militarism. realists, socialists
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Come on TopCat and others, put your money where your mouth is for once.
What do you suggest for Ukraine and the people living there? Complete and total surrender tomorrow, let the Russian military have the land it wants? Ceasefire and negotiations with how things are now? What if Russia refuses to negotiate, what then? And if they do what will you give away to the Russian State, the land and people it has control of now? Or can it keep the thousands of forcibly deported children? Should you give up on the chances of prosecution for any Russian war criminals? Or maybe you will agree to complete disarmament for Ukraine?
What's the grand alternative plan if you think all fighting should stop this moment? Come on, no point repeatedly saying the same thing without giving some alternatives. Winding back the clock to say it shouldn't have started is a lazy and not workable position, or we could just use that for arguing against capitalism etc. Nor is having the proletarian internationalism position that's also wishful thinking in the current moment.
Or do you have something else to suggest? Come on, give us some ideas for actual workable alternatives, I'd take the position you have with some seriousness if you can show some actual practical possibilities rather than the fantasy dreamland position it seems to be otherwise.
What do you suggest for Ukraine and the people living there? Complete and total surrender tomorrow, let the Russian military have the land it wants? Ceasefire and negotiations with how things are now? What if Russia refuses to negotiate, what then? And if they do what will you give away to the Russian State, the land and people it has control of now? Or can it keep the thousands of forcibly deported children? Should you give up on the chances of prosecution for any Russian war criminals? Or maybe you will agree to complete disarmament for Ukraine?
What's the grand alternative plan if you think all fighting should stop this moment? Come on, no point repeatedly saying the same thing without giving some alternatives. Winding back the clock to say it shouldn't have started is a lazy and not workable position, or we could just use that for arguing against capitalism etc. Nor is having the proletarian internationalism position that's also wishful thinking in the current moment.
Or do you have something else to suggest? Come on, give us some ideas for actual workable alternatives, I'd take the position you have with some seriousness if you can show some actual practical possibilities rather than the fantasy dreamland position it seems to be otherwise.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Can you lot sponsor cluster bombs? Have a message scrawled on one?
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I try hard not to engage with you generally. As for moaning, more subjective bullshit from you.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
How about the option of NATO (or any other) states engaging directly? That hasn't seen a lot of discussion here.
That's the question that the cluster bomb issue raises for me. It highlights the fact that what is happening now is that "western" states are feeding Ukraine with just enough resources to prevent further incursion by the Russian military, but this is achieved by fuelling a grinding process of more and more people from both sides getting killed and maimed, with no particular end in sight, except the optimistic one of a sudden and rather large change in Ukraine's fortunes.
What at this moment in time are the arguments against other nations' militaries getting directly involved, firstly telling Russia that this is what they are going to do unless they get out of there, and then acting on the threat if necessary? I don't mean any actions inside Russia's borders, I mean action on Ukrainian soil with the consent of Ukraine. Is it really just the risk of provoking a nuclear response, or are there other arguments against doing so, and what do those arguments look like in the context of the justifications being given for the supply of cluster bombs?
That's the question that the cluster bomb issue raises for me. It highlights the fact that what is happening now is that "western" states are feeding Ukraine with just enough resources to prevent further incursion by the Russian military, but this is achieved by fuelling a grinding process of more and more people from both sides getting killed and maimed, with no particular end in sight, except the optimistic one of a sudden and rather large change in Ukraine's fortunes.
What at this moment in time are the arguments against other nations' militaries getting directly involved, firstly telling Russia that this is what they are going to do unless they get out of there, and then acting on the threat if necessary? I don't mean any actions inside Russia's borders, I mean action on Ukrainian soil with the consent of Ukraine. Is it really just the risk of provoking a nuclear response, or are there other arguments against doing so, and what do those arguments look like in the context of the justifications being given for the supply of cluster bombs?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
all your questions are answered in the preceding pages
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Flavour
hang the bankers
We could sponsor a Russian cluster bomb and have a message scrawled on it within a few hours via the Z telegram channels -- probably cost you less than a grand. We could write "TopCat says stop the war!"
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
If we want the place flooded with spooks and editor sanctioned that'd be the way to go
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The embassy staff are asking for StrungOut’s banned list.
Needs list of warmongers , for balance
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
The answers given explained the thinking at the time they were given - for myself, my views have changed significantly over the last 18 months.
Personally * teuchter I think that if the NATO summit in Vilnius this week doesn't see a clear, *relatively quick pathway for Ukraine to join NATO thrashed out (not next week, or next month, but next year perhaps), then you might start to see individual member states looking at what they might do on an individual level - the most obvious one being Poland.
If Poland, already one of the most capable land powers on Europe, and one of the most hawkish on Ukraine, decided to use it's military power to create safe areas in Ukraine (Surface to Air missile batteries in Kyiv, Lviv, Odessa etc.. and fighters in the sky to the west of the Dnipro-Kharkiv line), would Russia seek to attack /shoot them down, or would they effectively accept that western Ukraine was now out of bounds, despite giving the Ukrainian military much respite and allowing it to concentrate it's forces
If Poland intervenes, would Russia attack Poland (where I sit, typing this out..) with missiles or air strikes how would NATO respond to air attacks on a NATO member state?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Your TINA position is contradicted by the stance of other allies of Ukraine.
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