Yossarian
Get thee behind me, Santa
It'd be hypocritical indeed if anyone here was calling for NATO to bomb the shit out of Russia's energy infrastructure and turn the residents of Moscow into ice sculptures.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
It'd be hypocritical indeed if anyone here was calling for NATO to bomb the shit out of Russia's energy infrastructure and turn the residents of Moscow into ice sculptures.
ska invita
back on the other side
interesting link...it basically says it is legalAs for legality of attacking civilian infrastructure, its a question of interpretation.
Is attacking the electricity infrastructure used by civilians always a war crime?
Since Russia’s grotesquely illegal invasion of Ukraine last February, experts have detailed the failures, incompetence, and savagery of its military. In that context, consider this disturbing new …sites.duke.edu
based on the rules set out in a US manual for war behaviour
it needs to be legal because as the Duke University author says the US will want to do it again pretty soon and we cant have people going around saying its a war crime
" we also need to be wary of seeming to establish new legal interpretations and precedents that might handicap U.S. and allied forces in a future conflict against another shamefully malevolent yet powerful adversary. "
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Genuine question. How were NATO provoked in Yugoslavia that led them to bomb the electricity supply there?
Supine
Newt Member
Ethic cleansing?
They primarily took out military targets. If you can google a power station that doesn’t really change anything.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Who really cares whether someone somewhere decides that war crimes are legal or not? This thread is about the Russian invasion and attemptEd subjugation of Ukraine. Not about Serbia or Iraq. I think you would find that all the posters slagging off the Russians also slagged off the US and UK in Iraq and Afghanistan etc. What matters here is how the Russian state behaves. We know the answer. With complete depravity. Utterly careless of human lives, of communities, of the environment. Anyone who can't see that, who farts on about NATO getting too close to borders, about Ukraine being run by Nazis, who thinks that Russian language provision in the Donbas is worth 200,000 lives. Well, I think such people need to take a good long look in the mirror. (I was going to say they should go fuck themselves, but I thought better of it.)
Supine
Newt Member
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Ethnic cleansing was one of the stated reasons for NATO intervention. I have never read provocation being one of them. Perhaps you could google further?
After what provocation would it be ok for a state to do what Russian forces are currently doing?
Supine
Newt Member
I don’t see why i should google anything. It’s not my diversionary rabbit hole.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Fine but I don't understand why you claimed NATO was provoked, hence my question.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see
Supine
Newt Member
You don’t understand why ethnic cleaning wouldn’t provoke the west to do something about it? Really? What has this got to do with russia attacking Ukraine anyway. If you don’t think russia is the problem here there’s no hope for you.
ska invita
back on the other side
i dont really care about war crimes - basically all war is a crime to me, and i think we have a duty to try to understand it and stop it, for ever.
My interest in talking about this war beyond booing and cheering is to see how peace can arise: peace in this conflict, and also peace by identifying the underlying conflict and competition that leads to war. It is not straightforward, its not as easy as pointing at pantomime heroes and villains. I dont claim to see it with crystal clarity, but I am looking.
You cant talk about this conflict in a vacuum, outside of history and limited to the borders of Ukraine and Russia. If you want to simplify geopolitical competition (and the wars that go with it) to a contrast-turned-up good v bad picture and then just cheer and boo at whats happening, crack on. I'd expect more from an urban thread though.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
You know full well that the issue of ethnic cleansing wasn’t the issue that was being discussed , it was your claim of provocation . It was you , not me , that introduced this ‘diversion’ into the thread . I simply asked you to explain this provocation .
As for hope for me , I’ve opposed the invasion from the beginning and contributed to Ukrainian refugees here in Portugal plus funding for heating and generators . I’m quite happy doing that , and as a socialist , having a healthy criticism and skepticism of all actors in capitalist states in this war .
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
If you think that I, and others, have been talking about this conflict outside of history and geopolitical context then you haven't been paying attention. Just go and read the threads on this forum. Actually, I'm sure you have.
Sometimes in human history it is really easy to see who is in the wrong. This is one of those clear cut examples. It's not necessarily good versus bad. No-one here is claiming Ukraine was paradise on Earth led by saint Zelensky. But the barbaric invasion by Russian forces is unequivocally a bad thing. More booing than cheering.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
What does "peace" mean? Id argue that the number one priority for the world should be securing a situation where the people of Ukraine - and all the other peoples of Eurasia menaced by Putin's murderous imperialism - are safe from the threat of destruction of their homes, lives, country and culture. Any other "peace" will be a failure. And for that to happen, Putin's regime has to lose - and be forced to accept it has lost.
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ska invita
back on the other side
Well perhaps you're having a conversation against a straw man version of me and you shouldn't have got so excited when i commented on a link posted previously without comment and much liked by other posters that said bombing infrastructure is legally fine because the US and its allies will be doing it again before long
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Supine
Newt Member
Good article. Very long read.
www.nytimes.com
Eta - doesnt need a paywall via twatter
Putin’s War: The Inside Story of a Catastrophe (Published 2022)
Secret battle plans, intercepted communications and Russian soldiers explain how a “walk in the park” became a catastrophe for Russia.
Eta - doesnt need a paywall via twatter
JimW
支那暗杀团
Have we had this? Suspicions of collaboration in the inital fall of Kherson:
apnews.com
Key Ukrainian city's rapid fall leaves unanswered questions
KHERSON, Ukraine (AP) — When about 100 Russian troops rolled into Kherson's Lilac Park on the morning of March 1, Oleh Shornik was one of about 20 lightly armed Ukrainian volunteers who didn't stand a chance against them.
apnews.com
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Good article. Very long read.
Putin’s War: The Inside Story of a Catastrophe (Published 2022)
Secret battle plans, intercepted communications and Russian soldiers explain how a “walk in the park” became a catastrophe for Russia.
Eta - doesnt need a paywall via twatter
That's a very good and comprehensive article, thanks.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
You really think execution of civilians is irrelevant and it just falls into the same category as opposing military forces fighting on the battlefield, in that it's just all a 'crime'? And what about guerilla warfare or other forms of violent resistance, it that also a crime? Or is that something different?
It's not a dig, it's a genuine question how you see these things, as to me it doesn't make sense in any way unless you're a pacifist.
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clusterfarce
Member
Shoigu toured the front lines, realised there was a morale problem so sent in the marching bands.
Its General Hogmanay Melchette level. IIRC Shoigu was a civil engineer before failing upwards to what some claim is the most lucrative job in the government that is not held by Putin.
What the soldiers really want is very likely to be relatively simple stuff, dry bunkers, decent cold weather kit, warm decent meal once a day (you can live on dry food for the other two meals, just get something wet and warm once a day), decent hot shower every couple of days and more than anything good body armour. The marching band will likely be taken as a sadistic joke.
Ukraine: Russia to deploy musicians to front to boost morale
The new "front-line creative brigade" will consist of volunteer musicians and mobilised recruits.
www.bbc.co.uk
I am sure front line troops will invite them to find creative new places to blow the trumpet from.
Its General Hogmanay Melchette level. IIRC Shoigu was a civil engineer before failing upwards to what some claim is the most lucrative job in the government that is not held by Putin.
What the soldiers really want is very likely to be relatively simple stuff, dry bunkers, decent cold weather kit, warm decent meal once a day (you can live on dry food for the other two meals, just get something wet and warm once a day), decent hot shower every couple of days and more than anything good body armour. The marching band will likely be taken as a sadistic joke.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Good article. Very long read.
Putin’s War: The Inside Story of a Catastrophe (Published 2022)
Secret battle plans, intercepted communications and Russian soldiers explain how a “walk in the park” became a catastrophe for Russia.
Eta - doesnt need a paywall via twatter
yeah - been reading that. Its very good. Loads of interesting detail whilst telling a wider picture.
The stuff about Putin's hubris is interesting. Apparently his advisors warned him not to annex Crimea in 2014 cos of fears of Ukrainian resistance and western sanctions - but he ignored them an went ahead - and was proved right - there was no resistance and western sanctions were small scale and ineffective. But this served to fuel his meglo-mania and hubristic self belief - so led to his decision to invade. Definite echoes of Hitlers early victories - the Anschluss with Austria, the Sudetenland, Poland, France - leading him to take ever more disastrous decisions as his own maniacal self belief increasingly trumped any sense of reality.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You miss out the most relevant of hitler's early victories, the remilitarisation of the rhineland, when Hitler and his generals were very anxious about the result and opposition. Western public opinion wouldn't support a war in 1936, nor would it have in 2014. your hitler's early victories are in fact his mid- to late victories. Hitler did listen to his generals: at first. Putin, by being right where they were wrong, probably ceased to listen to his with the attention he might have given.
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
No it actually Is hypocritical because that is exactly how the USA and UK targeted Iraq in its initial strikes, or does that not count because it was nice and warm over there at the time?
clusterfarce
Member
There are persistent rumours that Putin has a big announcement next week. More mobilisation seems very likely and perhaps mobilisation of industry to a war economy. "Total war is shortest war" vibes.
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