Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[ViolentPanda]

Ok, an exaggeration on my part. I am, clearly, blinded by my ignorance and prejudices when it comes to UKIP.

It's fine to be concerned about the fact that UKIP have expressed political positions that are right-wing and reactionary, and incorporate, stimulate and appeal to racist sentiment. Comparing UKIP's racism to any form of fascism, though, misses the point of what UKIP are, and that the very institution of UKIP itself, as a populist neoliberal political party, isn't amenable to fascism. What UKIP is, is 19th-cnetury Jingo, dressed in early 21st-century clothing. Horatio Bottomley would feel at home in UKIP.

 

[Brechin Sprout]

Educate, agitate and organise. Educate? The working class need no education.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Great post, it points to the utter failure of any established left in this country, most EU countries now have effective left of centre/far left entities now, Dutch Socialist Party, Podemos, Sryriza, but us?

Ask yourself why this is the case, and the answer is fairly obvious: In Greece, Spain, Holland, Germany and other Euro and non-Euro states, there have, for at least the last half-century, been multipartite political systems. Here, we're still very much a two party system despite the presence of the Lib-Dems and now UKIP. Some people continue to think of politics as a simple left/right binary opposition (something the media are quite willing to foster), and because this binary thinking is "normal", then people don't accept "left" alternatives in the way that occurs elsewhere - here we're still tied to the risible idea that Labour is "left", and that acts as a sizeable brake on a non-Labour left alternative coming about.
None of this is helped by the likes of Owen Jones talking up an alternative with one breath, and then asking people to "vote Labour without illusions" with the next.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Educate, agitate and organise. Educate? The working class need no education.

Who said it's the working class that needs educating?

 

[Lo Siento.]

Why is it pointless to criticise them?

It's not pointless to criticism them. It's pointless to call them racist.

Most people know what UKIP are. They know they're hostile to immigration, they know that they've got "official non racist" arguments for this (Skilled workers only! We're full! People are taking advantage of the system! They're pushing down wages and causing unemployment! Communities can't handle the pace of change!) and they know that lots of their members express their views in ways that verge from "a bit un-pc" to outright racist.

People know all this, and a lot of people still think they'll vote for them. So what is calling them racist supposed to achieve, other than reinforcing their own schtick about "saying the unsayable"?

 

[butchersapron]

It's not pointless to criticism them. It's pointless to call them racist.

Most people know what UKIP are. They know they're hostile to immigration, they know that they've got "official non racist" arguments for this (Skilled workers only! We're full! People are taking advantage of the system! They're pushing down wages and causing unemployment! Communities can't handle the pace of change!) and they know that lots of their members express their views in ways that verge from "a bit un-pc" to outright racist.

People know all this, and a lot of people still think they'll vote for them. So what is calling them racist supposed to achieve, other than reinforcing their own schtick about "saying the unsayable"?

It's supposed to achieve a sense of individual puffed up-righteousness and a warm feeling of being the modern day equivalent of the good german.

 

[belboid]

Great post, it points to the utter failure of any established left in this country, most EU countries now have effective left of centre/far left entities now, Dutch Socialist Party, Podemos, Sryriza, but us?

most? A tad delusional. As is the idea that they're effective. I see you've dropped Die Linke off your usual list, probably because is rapid right-wing trajectory has made it overwhelmingly ineffective. As could be said about many of the 'new left' formations. Whatever happened to Rifondazione, eh?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Because it may explain what went wrong here in England, why we have no Syriza, Podemos, no Die Linke, etc.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

More cheerleading and bon homie for UKIP from Britain First.

Why are UKIP so appealing to fascists? It's very puzzling.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/29/britain-first-ukip_n_6066498.html

 

[butchersapron]

Because they are fascists. Simple. Fascists. Fascists.Fascists.

 

[butchersapron]

Btw what is it about the your parties decentralisation policy that you think attracts fascists?

 

[Lo Siento.]

More cheerleading and bon homie for UKIP from Britain First.

Why are UKIP so appealing to fascists? It's very puzzling.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/29/britain-first-ukip_n_6066498.html

Imagine I'm a UKIP supporter. How does that article discourage me from voting UKIP? What's your argument?

 

[D'wards]

I suspect that the more criticism UKIP get in the media the more it reinforces their support - for a lot of people if they become targets for the likes of Ian Hislop, or James O'Brian or some either perceived "pinko leftie" media luvvie type then that probably means they are doing something right, as far as they are concerned.

 

[butchersapron]

I suspect that the more criticism UKIP get in the media the more it reinforces their support - for a lot of people if they become targets for the likes of Ian Hislop, or James O'Brian or some either perceived "pinko leftie" media luvvie type then that probably means they are doing something right, as far as they are concerned.

It doesn't need to be a pinko leftie - just a privileged dick with an easy life . That applies to left and right. And it certainly applies to the two named. And there's no perceived about it in these cases either.

But the same thing drives people who don't vote UKIP or don't vote at all.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Imagine I'm a UKIP supporter. How does that article discourage me from voting UKIP? What's your argument?

I've often thought "how to change the mind of UKIP voters" should be a different thread. I didn't post it for that purpose, so I don't really feel the need to answer the question.

If you were a UKIP voter, what I might say to you would depend on what else you said. There are clearly significant variations in motive for supporting the party.

 

[butchersapron]

I've often thought "how to change the mind of UKIP voters" should be a different thread. I didn't post it for that purpose, so I don't really feel the need to answer the question.

If you were a UKIP voter, what I might say to you would depend on what else you said. There are clearly significant variations in motive for supporting the party.

From fascism to racism apparently. Oh yeah, and being in the hitler youth.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I suspect that the more criticism UKIP get in the media the more it reinforces their support - for a lot of people if they become targets for the likes of Ian Hislop, or James O'Brian or some either perceived "pinko leftie" media luvvie type then that probably means they are doing something right, as far as they are concerned.

Hislop always struck me as centre right, which may be pretty close to Marxist by the standards of some frothers, but that perception would not be founded in anything as far flung as fact.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

From fascism to racism apparently. Oh yeah, and being in the hitler youth.

It was the hitler youth I was saying perhaps should have been listened to, sarcastically obviously.

Imagine it, Communists and others slagging off Hitler as a genocidal lunatic. "oh no, you mustn't talk about that, we must address the concerns of the petite bourgeoise and the upper proletarian sections.

Anyway, now our leaders are listening to what the spy-on-murdered-kids media says are the concerns in modern britain, and people in the med are drowning as a result.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I've often thought "how to change the mind of UKIP voters" should be a different thread. I didn't post it for that purpose, so I don't really feel the need to answer the question.

If you were a UKIP voter, what I might say to you would depend on what else you said. There are clearly significant variations in motive for supporting the party.

What was the purpose in posting it? Do you think it answers the question put in the OP?

Being a political person, my first reaction to the thread title 'UKIP - why are they gaining support' is that people want info so they can affect what's happening.

 

[butchersapron]

It was the hitler youth I was saying perhaps should have been listened to, sarcastically obviously.

Imagine it, Communists and others slagging off Hitler as a genocidal lunatic. "oh no, you mustn't talk about that, we must address the concerns of the petite bourgeoise and the upper proletarian sections.

Anyway, now our leaders are listening to what the spy-on-murdered-kids media says are the concerns in modern britain, and people in the med are drowning as a result.

Fuck off. You're the sort of insufferable prick that is helping UKIP.

Why are you quoting tabloid journos in your pathetic fascist hunting btw? Why does your parties policies attract fascist support?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

What was the purpose in posting it? Do you think it answers the question put in the OP?

It's a relevant supplementary question "Why are UKIP gaining support from the far right?"

So far, no one has attempted to answer it, though I have been told to fuck off.

 

[butchersapron]

It's a relevant supplementary question "Why are UKIP gaining support from the far right?"

So far, no one has attempted to answer it, though I have been told to fuck off.

Supplementary to what? Where is the content that it is supplementary to?

 

[Lo Siento.]

It's a relevant supplementary question "Why are UKIP gaining support from the far right?"

So far, no one has attempted to answer it, though I have been told to fuck off.

It was a bit of a rhetorical question, was it not?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Fuck off. You're the sort of insufferable prick that is helping UKIP

Don't know how many times I've said it, but it's the sort of conversation I have away from places like this, so I don't see that it is helping UKIP.

I've yet to be convinced that your constant bitterness and one up ship is exactly helpful in defeating them either, but I might be more open minded than you.

Apols if this post is too devoid of swearing to have the desired impact.

Fuckity fuck fuck. Is that better?

 

[butchersapron]

You clueless cunt.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It was a bit of a rhetorical question, was it not?

Not really, but there was sarcasm that could have made it rhetorical if no one answered.

The party have been a pole of attraction for some time (Butchers will cite what I said 5 years ago, but dynamics have certainly changed since then)

The propaganda is littered with dog whistle stuff. I don't see why it's so problematic to talk about the whys and wherefores without being told to fuck off by the eternal "know betters".

Repeating myself again, if we collectively actually knew the answers we wouldn't be where we are. Some modesty might be called for instead of the ceaseless recriminatory attitudes that have destroyed the left for generations.

Obviously, a common theme is that we should publicly address the neo liberal and fundamentally anti working class aspects of the UKIP program and rhetoric. That happens loads now, I'm sure we all do it.

I don't think that needs to preclude analysis of the extreme social reactionary contingent as well.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

You clueless cunt.

Why have your politics not got more traction in this country Butch?

How is it that you are so clued up?

 

[Lo Siento.]

Not really, but there was sarcasm that could have made it rhetorical if no one answered.

The party have been a pole of attraction for some time (Butchers will cite what I said 5 years ago, but dynamics have certainly changed since then)

The propaganda is littered with dog whistle stuff. I don't see why it's so problematic to talk about the whys and wherefores without being told to fuck off by the eternal "know betters".

Repeating myself again, if we collectively actually knew the answers we wouldn't be where we are. Some modesty might be called for instead of the eternal recriminatory attitudes that have destroyed the left for generations.

Obviously, a common theme is that we should publicly address the neo liberal and fundamentally anti working class aspects of the UKIP program and rhetoric. That happens loads now, I'm sure we all do it.

I don't think that needs to preclude analysis of the extreme social reactionary contingent as well.

Again, it's not problematic, it's just pointless. The vast majority of UKIP members aren't fascists, they certainly aren't neo-nazis, and the party's message is not based in that tradition. The vast majority of their supporters aren't fascists or neo-nazis either, and don't see themselves in that tradition. So pointing out that a small minority of their supporters are, whilst hinting broadly at the blindingly obvious reasons for that support, has got to be - at best - a pretty inadequate way of approaching the problem. If not an actively damaging one if it encourages people to approach the problem in that way.

 

[butchersapron]

Why have your politics not got more traction in this country Butch?

How is it that you are so clued up?

Because I told you to Fuck off. Clearly.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

Surely there must be a limit to the usefulness of left bickering with left over ukip. Why not take it to the heart of their supporters here:

http://boards.dailymail.co.uk/news-...-racist-holocaust-denier-save-eu-funding.html

Over 40,000 views (if that is correct) in one week.