Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[JimW]

...to call them fascist is exagerating?

More that it's a pointless criticism - it won't change the minds of people drawn to vote for them and if anything will feed the "stick one up the establishment/metropolitan luvvies' aspect of their appeal. They have shit enough policies that as has been pointed out don't chime with their voter's expressed opinions, so that would be better place to start.

 

[butchersapron]

Haven't you got the message yet? FUCK OFF

I think you're onto a social winner here.

 

[killer b]

To call them fascist is totally counterproductive - it makes you look like a hysterical idiot, and drives people away from whatever cause you claim to stand for in opposition of UKIP.

 

[DotCommunist]

That UKIP aren't all that bad and to call them fascist is exagerating?

no to the former and yes to the latter. Nobody here wants a populist right of tory party winning seats. Its not a good look when the only left of labour seat belongs to galloway and he won't retain it next GE.

The real worry here, and I don't want to sound all vanguardist or anything, but places like clacton, working class post-indusrial towns etc... thats supposed to be 'our' parish. Write that shit off as racists and what have you if you want. And I'm not for a moment denying that some voters and most of the party display xenepobic tendencies (in the case of party members its beyond slightly). You are left with the question- why is UKIP doing so well? it really isn't because the voters hate foriegners and the eu.

 

[krtek a houby]

More that it's a pointless criticism - it won't change the minds of people drawn to vote for them and if anything will feed the "stick one up the establishment/metropolitan luvvies' aspect of their appeal. They have shit enough policies that as has been pointed out don't chime with their voter's expressed opinions, so that would be better place to start.

But any UKIP person I've engaged with don't know about the party's views on minimum wage, selling off the NHS etc etc.

They all bang on about crowding, sponging and Eastern Europeans, ad nauseum.

 

[butchersapron]

But any UKIP person I've engaged with don't know about the party's views on minimum wage, selling off the NHS etc etc.

They all bang on about crowding, sponging and Eastern Europeans, ad nauseum.

Think about that.

Why do they not care about the things the anti-ukipers go on about ad-nasueum? Think.

 

[krtek a houby]

To call them fascist is totally counterproductive - it makes you look like a hysterical idiot, and drives people away from whatever cause you claim to stand for in opposition of UKIP.

I'm pissed off with them because apparently,

 

[krtek a houby]

Think about that.

Why do they not care about the things the anti-ukipers go on about ad-nasueum? Think.

Ｂｅｃａｕｓｅ ｔｈｅｙ ａｒｅ ｎｏｔ ｉｎｔｅｒｅｓｔｅｄ ｉｎ

 

[butchersapron]

Ｂｅｃａｕｓｅ ｔｈｅｙ ａｒｅ ｎｏｔ ｉｎｔｅｒｅｓｔｅｄ ｉｎ

People don't care about the things that you're interested in them being interested in. Why not?

 

[JimW]

But any UKIP person I've engaged with don't know about the party's views on minimum wage, selling off the NHS etc etc.

They all bang on about crowding, sponging and Eastern Europeans, ad nauseum.

Beyond that hard core of knobs they're getting these high polls/by-elections by successfully appealing to a wider section of people who are disaffected and feeling the impact of austerity, those are the ones who would be put off to discover what the party really stands for - nothing wrong with also pointing out the fallacies of UKIP's blame it all on immigrants approach either of course.
Kenan Malik's had some posts up on his blog that take a similar vein to the P&P regulars here - not read them all but have learned from the ones I did: http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2014/10/11/as-i-was-saying-about-ukip/

 

[goldenecitrone]

Why is it pointless to criticise them?

It doesn't seem to have that much effect on the people who say they are going to vote for them. Nige can get away with anything it seems.

Nigel Farage: 'There’s nothing wrong with white people blacking up'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...ng-with-white-people-blacking-up-9823608.html

Hope he blacks up for the election debate.

 

[DownwardDog]

those are the ones who would be put off to discover what the party really stands for

How do you know this?

 

[butchersapron]

How do you know this?

Know what? That the party doesn't stand for the things they support?

 

[xenon]

if you think ukip are fascism lite then you haven't understood fascism, in modern or historical context. What ukip are not plauged by, unlike the bnp and its 'nutzi' wing (griffins term for semi-allied nf's BM's and assorted hitler cultists/out and out fash) UKIP retains some respectability (not to me but in the eyes of society) precisely because it isn't that. It's not even britain first. To align a populist right movement automatically with fascism is lazy and innacurate. Thats before we get into the motivations of ukip voters- clacton is not the fifth riech.

Absolutely. I can't give this a proper response because I'm using my phone. But I have relatives that are going to vote ukip. It speaks perhaps to my paucity of political rhetorical skills skills or knowledge. But I couldn't argue with them at the time anyway. It is simplistic nonsense to write off those drawn by UKIP as racist bigots. And absolves You from any analysis.

 

[xenon]

Yes I've had the discussion about another facet of neoliberal, Thatchers continuation et cetera. But these are voting people. In their early 70s. They're not going to go out and start raising hell or whatever. And a Sunday afternoon when they helping out with your dad has dementia. Not really the time.

 

[JimW]

How do you know this?

There's polling shows a large part of their vote expresses positions on issues like NHS privatisation, nationalisation of utilities etc that differ from stated policies of UKIP -- I presume that's true of all party voter bases versus their chosen party to an extent but disconnect seems marked enough with UKIP to suggest that what's driving their support isn't a positive endorsement of their programme.

 

[Dogsauce]

UKIP supporters are the group that most strongly supports renationalisation of the railways from what I recall of some past polling on the issue. They probably also want steam engines and deferential station porters in smart uniforms too, mind.

tbh Farage was on the nail with his defence of not yet wearing a poppy in that article on blacking up. Fair play on that one, I like a bit of railing against insincere bolllocks.

 

[laptop]

UKIP supporters are the group that most strongly supports renationalisation of the railways from what I recall of some past polling on the issue. They probably also want steam engines and deferential station porters in smart uniforms too, mind.

I seem to recall that a key plank of the transport section of their manifesto was to repaint trains and stations in the colours of the 1923 railway companies. So, yes.

 

[krtek a houby]

People don't care about the things that you're interested in them being interested in. Why not?

When you post, all I see is this

 

[treelover]

no to the former and yes to the latter. Nobody here wants a populist right of tory party winning seats. Its not a good look when the only left of labour seat belongs to galloway and he won't retain it next GE.

The real worry here, and I don't want to sound all vanguardist or anything, but places like clacton, working class post-indusrial towns etc... thats supposed to be 'our' parish. Write that shit off as racists and what have you if you want. And I'm not for a moment denying that some voters and most of the party display xenepobic tendencies (in the case of party members its beyond slightly). You are left with the question- why is UKIP doing so well? it really isn't because the voters hate foriegners and the eu.

Great post, it points to the utter failure of any established left in this country, most EU countries now have effective left of centre/far left entities now, Dutch Socialist Party, Podemos, Sryriza, but us?

 

[butchersapron]

Great post, it points to the utter failure of any established left in this country, most EU countries now have effective left of centre/far left entities now, Dutch Socialist Party, Podemos, Sryriza, but us?

What does effective mean? Are they any further away from neo-liberalism than us?

 

[treelover]

But any UKIP person I've engaged with don't know about the party's views on minimum wage, selling off the NHS etc etc.

They all bang on about crowding, sponging and Eastern Europeans, ad nauseum.

if there was an effective left it would make it its business to inform potential UKIP voters, especially those who previously voted labour, etc.

 

[butchersapron]

if there was an effective left it would make it its business to inform potential UKIP voters, especially those who previously voted labour, etc.

An effective left would be busy informing the class what it should really think? Isn't doing just that one reason why we haven't got an effective socially implanted left?

 

[krtek a houby]

if there was an effective left it would make it its business to inform potential UKIP voters, especially those who previously voted labour, etc.

How would they do that?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Aren't they, though? I've never met a UKIP supporter who hasn't made some comment about the "coloureds"/foreigners/gays etc. But maybe the fault lies with me & I'm tarring them all with the same brush.

What scares me is rather than stand up to them, the mainstream political parties seem to be copying them (hello, Mr Fallon).

And it seems to me, naive as I am, that it's suddenly becoming taboo in certain circles to criticise the party as being racist. Personally, I believe that fascism lite is creeping in by stealth and it's the thin end of the wedge.

Just my tuppence worth.

There's a large measure of difference between racism (the practice of personal prejudice against those that are "different") and fascism (which we could call "the politics of difference"). To conflate the two so that "fascism lite" follows on from racism entirely misses the point of what fascism is, and misses the fact that UKIP's politics are neoliberal, and yes, play on racism, but are not fascist.

 

[treelover]

An effective left would be busy informing the class what it should really think? Isn't doing just that one reason why we haven't got an effective socially implanted left?

I don't mean that, I mean it would be visible in those communities, indeed part of those communities and would be able argue its case but changing its perspectives when confronted with day to day realities, eg Palestine is not the most important issue in the UK.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't mean that, I mean it would be visible in those communities, indeed part of those communities and would be able argue its case but changing its perspectives when confronted with day to day realities, eg Palestine is not the most important issue in the UK.

You need to think about just what this effective left would be and what it would be doing and how it would come to be able to do these things. How are you going to bell that cat or are you just going to say over and over that it should be belled?

 

[krtek a houby]

There's a large measure of difference between racism (the practice of personal prejudice against those that are "different") and fascism (which we could call "the politics of difference"). To conflate the two so that "fascism lite" follows on from racism entirely misses the point of what fascism is, and misses the fact that UKIP's politics are neoliberal, and yes, play on racism, but are not fascist.

Ok, an exaggeration on my part. I am, clearly, blinded by my ignorance and prejudices when it comes to UKIP.

 

[butchersapron]

Clearly blinded. Good one.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There's polling shows a large part of their vote expresses positions on issues like NHS privatisation, nationalisation of utilities etc that differ from stated policies of UKIP -- I presume that's true of all party voter bases versus their chosen party to an extent but disconnect seems marked enough with UKIP to suggest that what's driving their support isn't a positive endorsement of their programme.

And it's the fact of the difference between the aspirations of potential UKIPpers and the party's policies (thin on the ground as they are) which energises both Labour and the Tories to swing rightward on the immigration theme and attempt to "re-capture" those of "their" voters who may see UKIP as a useful protest vote or political alternative.