Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[andysays]

But none of those economic problems are caused by immigration. Immigrants are the solution to economic problems, not the cause of them.

The only reason to object to cultural diversity is racism. Can you think of another?

Immigration (as opposed to immigrants) often exacerbates existing economic problems for those at the bottom of the economic pile, but that's clearly not you, so why even worry about it.

Objecting to cultural diversity in general, in the abstract, may be racism. Recognising that cultural diversity can result in specific problems, and that people at the bottom of the pile tend to experience those problems most acutely is not racism, or if it is, then that makes me a racist too.

Lovely to chat, must do it again some time.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

In fact, it was on the Clacton by-election thread, after the result was known.

The clear implication was not that UKIP the party are fascists, but that everyone in Clacton who voted for them is, which to my mind is actually worse.

Not that clear, I wasn't even thinking of Clacton. There's already enough wide-of-mark psychics round here.

 

[andysays]

Not that clear, I wasn't even thinking of Clacton. There's already enough wide-of-mark psychics round here.

And yet you chose to post it on a thread all about the Clacton by-election.

I think the truth is that you weren't even thinking full stop.

Interesting also that you talk of wide-of-the-mark psychics while presuming to tell us that all UKIP supporters are rascists and fascists.

 

[co-op]

If UKIP's main anti-immigration policy is targeted at immigration from within the EU then I really struggle to see how it can be called racist in itself. The EU population is "whiter" than the UK's. 30 years ago, being "anti-immigration" meant being racist, almost without exception, that's not true any more.

 

[chilango]

If UKIP's main anti-immigration policy is targeted at immigration from within the EU then I really struggle to see how it can be called racist in itself. The EU population is "whiter" than the UK's. 30 years ago, being "anti-immigration" meant being racist, almost without exception, that's not true any more.

Yeah but the immigration being questioned isn't Germans, Danes, Dutch, French etc. it's the "Slavs" innit?

Whilst I certainly don't think all opposition to immigration is racist, or motivated by racism, I equally don't think that it can't be racist, or motivated by racism.

Lots of strands that need unpicking.

 

[Lo Siento.]

If UKIP's main anti-immigration policy is targeted at immigration from within the EU then I really struggle to see how it can be called racist in itself. The EU population is "whiter" than the UK's. 30 years ago, being "anti-immigration" meant being racist, almost without exception, that's not true any more.

It's perfectly possible for white people to be racist against other white people.

On the not racist and anti immigration, you'd have to unpack what you meant by both those terms for that to make any sense.

 

[co-op]

It's perfectly possible for white people to be racist against other white people.

On the not racist and anti immigration, you'd have to unpack what you meant by both those terms for that to make any sense.

And so would you.

I hear lots of people grumble about "immigration", I don't hear nasty words invented for Poles, see unpleasant and aggressive anti-Polish graffitti, and see the national newspapers running campaigns about Polish muggers or urban myths about dozens of Poles being found in your attic because a Pole had moved in down the road. I don't have long conversations in pubs warding off the topic of Poles being smelly/unfriendly/unkind to animals etc etc - god I can't even remember the bullshit some people used to come out with. I don't see Polish men fetishised as predatory sexual animals who are after "our" women.

People are complaining ime about competition for resources, they do this either directly or they complain about the consequences. That isn't racism.

 

[Lo Siento.]

And so would you.

I hear lots of people grumble about "immigration", I don't hear nasty words invented for Poles, see unpleasant and aggressive anti-Polish graffitti, and see the national newspapers running campaigns about Polish muggers or urban myths about dozens of Poles being found in your attic because a Pole had moved in down the road. I don't have long conversations in pubs warding off the topic of Poles being smelly/unfriendly/unkind to animals etc etc - god I can't even remember the bullshit some people used to come out with. I don't see Polish men fetishised as predatory sexual animals who are after "our" women.

People are complaining ime about competition for resources, they do this either directly or they complain about the consequences. That isn't racism.

Reckon you'd be able to find plenty of that stuff about Eastern Europeans about (although not exactly the same, obviously), arguably less of it I suppose.

The idea of "resource competition" isn't without its problems either. Who's competing? Whose resources?

 

[co-op]

Reckon you'd be able to find plenty of that stuff about Eastern Europeans about (although not exactly the same, obviously), arguably less of it I suppose.

It's not "arguably less" it's patently bloody obviously massively a lot less.

The historical comparison should be with groups like the Irish in the UK but you can't do that because that's smudged by 400 years of the British state moulding its own identity as being fundamentally anti-catholic so the Irish were de facto traitors and everyone else Loyal. It's such a particular case it's almost impossible to generalise from it.

The idea of "resource competition" isn't without its problems either. Who's competing? Whose resources?

Well durr.

 

[Lo Siento.]

It's not "arguably less" it's patently bloody obviously massively a lot less.

The historical comparison should be with groups like the Irish in the UK but you can't do that because that's smudged by 400 years of the British state moulding its own identity as being fundamentally anti-catholic so the Irish were de facto traitors and everyone else Loyal. It's such a particular case it's almost impossible to generalise from it.

You think? Plenty of stuff about Romanians and Bulgarians being thieves, criminals, being involved in benefit fraud etc, etc.

Well durr.

Well quite, and the idea that "I'm entitled to something because I'm British and you're not because you're foreign" isn't a form of racism?

 

[co-op]

You think? Plenty of stuff about Romanians and Bulgarians being thieves, criminals, being involved in benefit fraud etc, etc.

I'll give you Romanians,I think that the way they are generalised gets up to some kind of racist stereotype - although it's pretty mild compared to what non-white groups had to put up with within living memory. Never heard it with Bulgarians maybe I have just been lucky.

But I'm not saying "it's impossible for a majority white culture to construct racist theories about groups of people who also have white skin". I'm saying that as well as trying to understand why so many people are worried about immigration (and voting UKIP) we might want to wonder why shaking the "racist" fetish at them doesn't seem to be working. And one reason might be that this isn't good old fashioned racism as many people remember it. That's why UKIP can put out (eg) 9 BME candidates in the Croydon local elections in 2014, I don't remember the BNP or the NF being able to do that. In fact I'm pretty sure you won't find the tories doing that very often.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I'll give you Romanians,I think that the way they are generalised gets up to some kind of racist stereotype - although it's pretty mild compared to what non-white groups had to put up with within living memory. Never heard it with Bulgarians maybe I have just been lucky.

But I'm not saying "it's impossible for a majority white culture to construct racist theories about groups of people who also have white skin". I'm saying that as well as trying to understand why so many people are worried about immigration (and voting UKIP) we might want to wonder why shaking the "racist" fetish at them doesn't seem to be working. And one reason might be that this isn't good old fashioned racism as many people remember it. That's why UKIP can put out (eg) 9 BME candidates in the Croydon local elections in 2014, I don't remember the BNP or the NF being able to do that. In fact I'm pretty sure you won't find the tories doing that very often.

Oh yeah, and that's related to what the mainstream definition of "racism" is and the fact that Britain tells this story about itself where we're the most unracist country in the world.

 

[co-op]

Oh yeah, and that's related to what the mainstream definition of "racism" is and the fact that Britain tells this story about itself where we're the most unracist country in the world.

I must have missed that bit of Our Great National Story.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I must have missed that bit of Our Great National Story.

Just read any Guardian editorial on race relations in the US or France (or anywhere), they're dripping with such assumptions.

 

[killer b]

Well quite, and the idea that "I'm entitled to something because I'm British and you're not because you're foreign" isn't a form of racism?

when it's couched in those terms, clearly it is. But it often isn't, and anyway competition for resources isn't restricted to areas of high immigration - look elsewhere on the forum for discussions on the effects of gentrification, which is the result of similar forces. The tone of those discussions seems to be quite different, for some reason...

 

[phildwyer]

...for example.

I'd venture that instances of immigration where one population is displaced by another (especially where the immigrant population is older, wealthier and culturally homogenous) doesn't increase cultural diversity.

Does that ever really happen though? In modern times I mean?

 

[co-op]

Just read any Guardian editorial on race relations in the US or France (or anywhere), they're dripping with such assumptions.

I haven't read a Guardian editorial for decades, but there is a greater degree of integration in the UK than in many European countries and US society is obviously riddled with serious open racism so they can flatter themselves quite easily I'm sure.

My point is that when you have an immigration group being targeted that are largely white, christian and blonder than the national population - and yes you're right this doesn't fit the southern/"mediterranean" groups who have lower status in the great global racial hierarchy - but this first group, the Poles, the Balts etc and they are often the named groups in these debates, it's really stretching things to call this racism for me. I mean they don't even seem to attract the slovenly/unrespectable tags that economic migrants (ie the poor) usually get slapped on them, if anything the reverse.

And UKIP's policies are targeting these groups as much as anyone. Calling it racism isn't working in making UKIP support taboo, maybe this is why?

 

[emanymton]

Does that ever really happen though? In modern times I mean?

Israel?

 

[Pickman's model]

Israel?

yeh the immigrant population was definitely aulder and more homogenous than the indigenous tell you what, let us weigh some evidence you produce to support that statement and we'll take things from there.

 

[chilango]

Does that ever really happen though? In modern times I mean?

North Wales (or any "pleasant" rural location with few employment prospects.) Lots of seaside places. Tuscany.

 

[phildwyer]

North Wales (or any "pleasant" rural location with few employment prospects.) Lots of seaside places. Tuscany.

I don't think the indigenous inhabitants have been displaced in any of those cases.

Israel and South Africa maybe? But those are instances of colonization rather than immigration.

 

[Lo Siento.]

when it's couched in those terms, clearly it is. But it often isn't, and anyway competition for resources isn't restricted to areas of high immigration - look elsewhere on the forum for discussions on the effects of gentrification, which is the result of similar forces. The tone of those discussions seems to be quite different, for some reason...

Probably something to do with power.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Does that ever really happen though? In modern times I mean?

Farming communities up and down the country; the village where my paternal grandparents lived is now a solidly middle class 'ghetto' whereas when I was a child, there was a very apparent mix between working class, council housed farm workers (very happy not to be tied tenants) and significantly more affluent home owners. This transformation happened form 1981/2 onwards. It may be a marginal effect in terms of overall population stats, but I feel pretty confident that it has actually happened.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Lo Siento.]

I haven't read a Guardian editorial for decades, but there is a greater degree of integration in the UK than in many European countries and US society is obviously riddled with serious open racism so they can flatter themselves quite easily I'm sure.

My point is that when you have an immigration group being targeted that are largely white, christian and blonder than the national population - and yes you're right this doesn't fit the southern/"mediterranean" groups who have lower status in the great global racial hierarchy - but this first group, the Poles, the Balts etc and they are often the named groups in these debates, it's really stretching things to call this racism for me. I mean they don't even seem to attract the slovenly/unrespectable tags that economic migrants (ie the poor) usually get slapped on them, if anything the reverse.

And UKIP's policies are targeting these groups as much as anyone. Calling it racism isn't working in making UKIP support taboo, maybe this is why?

I don't think the whiteness of the incomers is particularly important tbh. There's always been a substantial constituency who weren't bothered if people they considered "the PC brigade" said they were racists.

 

[phildwyer]

Farming communities up and down the country; the village where my paternal grandparents lived is now a solidly middle class 'ghetto' whereas when I was a child, there was a very apparent mix between working class, council housed farm workers (very happy not to be tied tenants) and significantly more affluent home owners. This transformation happened form 1981/2 onwards. It may be a marginal effect in terms of overall population stats, but I feel pretty confident that it has actually happened.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

But was this due to immigration from abroad?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

But was this due to immigration from abroad?

Yep Phil you've got me banged to rights; I should have read back more carefully. I would say - not in defence but as an aside - that the middle class incomers certainly felt culturally foreign to my grandparents.

Oops - Louis MacNeice

 

[co-op]

I don't think the whiteness of the incomers is particularly important tbh. There's always been a substantial constituency who weren't bothered if people they considered "the PC brigade" said they were racists.

Well obviously those people who don't care about being called racists won't care about being called racists.

The whiteness of the target immigrants seems important to me, it means that by the normal usage it's not racist to want to exclude them - and I can see why people think that. This might be why there is 77% of the UK population who want to see immigration reduced a little (21%) or a lot (56%) according to reasonably reputable polling (British Social Attitudes Survey 2013) but there's no way all of these people are racists who don't care being called a racist. Some of them are almost certainly BME...actually if they're opposing white immigration, maybe they are racist...I'll have to think about that one...

 

[emanymton]

yeh the immigrant population was definitely aulder and more homogenous than the indigenous tell you what, let us weigh some evidence you produce to support that statement and we'll take things from there.

The original post said especially when older and more homogeneous, therefore being older and more homogeneous is not a necessary condition.

 

[Pickman's model]

The original post said especially when older and more homogeneous, therefore being older and more homogeneous is not a necessary condition.

like alan sugar i don't like people who bottle out

 

[William of Walworth]

What passes for the modern left tends to be far too blase about all this. Perhaps those who reduce people’s worries and fears to mere bigotry should go back to first principles, and consider whether, in such laissez-faire conditions, free movement has been of most benefit to capital or labour. They might also think about the dread spectacle of people from upscale London postcodes passing judgment on people who experience large-scale migration as something real.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ration-politicians-david-cameron-ukip-eu-exit

Guardian writer(John Harris) breaks ranks?

What ranks treelover ?

Want to get back to that article, which I read, tomorrow (after I've caught up with a couple of pages on this thread etc.)