Ukip - why are they gaining support?
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Belfast held on to its until 1968.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Ulster says NO NO.
http://web.archive.org/web/20120420.../should-people-on-benefits-be-allowed-to-vote
I'll be happy to retract the image if he turns out to no longer be a capitalist scumbag.
Thanks. What an idiot.
Basic logic fail in that article:
Umm.. no. Logic doesn't work like that. If A -> B then ~B -> ~A. To reverse Hampden's notion we would have to say representation requires taxation. That doesn't mean only those people who actually pay tax but all those who participate in the taxation system.
I've dealt with his shareholder perspective earlier, but really, if someone as inept as I at arguing can so easily dismiss his argument, it doesn't speak much for him, does it?
Basic logic fail in that article:
Umm.. no. Logic doesn't work like that. If A -> B then ~B -> ~A. To reverse Hampden's notion we would have to say representation requires taxation. That doesn't mean only those people who actually pay tax but all those who participate in the taxation system.
I've dealt with his shareholder perspective earlier, but really, if someone as inept as I at arguing can so easily dismiss his argument, it doesn't speak much for him, does it?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I'm afraid logic doesn't work like that either.
If I am poisoned, I will die.
If I am not poisoned I will not die.
Doesn't follow, does it?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What's the symbol for necessarily?
You're making a similar mistake. Think A = poisoned and B = die, so your second line becomes
I will not die if I am not poisoned. (i.e. ~B -> ~A)
And the logic works.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Not it doesn't, and your reversal changes nothing. It still assumes being poisoned is the only way to die.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Depends whether you care more about moralistic posturing or about changing society.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Theres plenty of moralistic posturing here against tje idea that we should even discuss the disgusting reactionary elements of what is going on. The right wing press narratives are founded not least on moralistic posturing, they also seem to change society more than holier than thou"dont say raxists are racist " nitpickers.
ETA: dunno how many times I have to say this, but I don't think I've ever said "they're racist" to a UKIP supporter or potential supporter. I don't consider the party systemically racist, though it attracts racsists, is qquite prepared to work with racists, and the rhetoric of many supporters is replete with racist themes (not least, stuff on a "culture wars" model)
I find it pretty annoying and needless when people focus on the far right aspects in many places away from here, because it's not effective (having said that, economic and other arguments are not always effective either, for various complex reasons)
But I consider places like this to be a bit different from that, I am not addressing UKIP supporters here.
Just because someone discusses racist aspects, it doesnt mean that's the main thing they discuss away from here. It's patronising and stupid to suppose that there's some mutal exclusivty between discussing racism and discussing other component factors of popular rightist narratives and appeal.
Can we, for once, get past that basic and erroneous supposition?
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andysays
Love and solidarity
These peopel are the first to argue they should pay less tax. So less of a vote for them.
Nevermind that voting is a human right.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No it's not.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Now the Jewish Board Of Deputies have gone and said that racists are racist.
Where will it end?
http://www.bod.org.uk/live/content.php?Item_ID=130&Blog_ID=1302
Board Vice President Jonathan Arkush said: “The Board is gravely concerned by reports that UKIP may sit in the same parliamentary grouping as a far-right Polish MEP in a bid save its funding. Robert Iwaszkiewicz belongs to an extremist party whose leader has a history of Holocaust denial, racist remarks and misogynistic comments. He belongs to the far-right Polish JKM, led by Janusz Korwin-Mikke who has reportedly called into question the right of women to have the vote.
“Furthermore, we entirely reject UKIP’s justification that ‘All groups in the European Parliament have very odd bedfellows (and) The rules to get speaking time and funding are set by the EP, not UKIP’. Extremists and racists should be roundly rejected, not embraced. Even France's far right Front National rejected the JKM as being too extreme.
“For UKIP to choose such a figure as Robert Iwaszkiewicz as a bedfellow, apparently for money, is beyond belief. Nigel Farage now has some very serious questions to answer. He has placed in issue the credibility of UKIP."
Where will it end?
http://www.bod.org.uk/live/content.php?Item_ID=130&Blog_ID=1302
Board Vice President Jonathan Arkush said: “The Board is gravely concerned by reports that UKIP may sit in the same parliamentary grouping as a far-right Polish MEP in a bid save its funding. Robert Iwaszkiewicz belongs to an extremist party whose leader has a history of Holocaust denial, racist remarks and misogynistic comments. He belongs to the far-right Polish JKM, led by Janusz Korwin-Mikke who has reportedly called into question the right of women to have the vote.
“Furthermore, we entirely reject UKIP’s justification that ‘All groups in the European Parliament have very odd bedfellows (and) The rules to get speaking time and funding are set by the EP, not UKIP’. Extremists and racists should be roundly rejected, not embraced. Even France's far right Front National rejected the JKM as being too extreme.
“For UKIP to choose such a figure as Robert Iwaszkiewicz as a bedfellow, apparently for money, is beyond belief. Nigel Farage now has some very serious questions to answer. He has placed in issue the credibility of UKIP."
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
The BoD are spot on there.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
he's said that he is gravely concerned with farage's party sharing a political bloc in the EU with holocaust denying racists. So should we all be concerned (I thought that group collapsed the other day though?).
he's not said every ukip voter is a card carrying fascist which you have.
he's not said every ukip voter is a card carrying fascist which you have.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Ideally, yes. But it's the sort of thing the amazing "nige" just brushes off. After all, detail is <yawn> in the new politics. Criticism is mere "leftie smears" and top of it all, he gets photographed with pints which seems a "get out of jail free" for just about anything.
I bet Griffin kicks himself he never tried that stunt.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
If that's aimed at me, I haven't. The meme thing from a couple of weeks ago was about fascists/fascism, not about UKIP members. There are certainly enough disturbing fascist traits in membership and rhetoric, but just as I said the party are not systemcially racist nor do I believe them to be systemically fascist, still less "card carrying".
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Disturbing allies for sure.
Are you a member/supporter of the Green Party taffboy? I've vague memories that you are, but I could be mistaken.
I don't think you're in any danger.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
No, not really, I'm not sure that this will be so easy to brush off. I expect that UKIP will be banking on the notion that this sort of obscure, Euro-politics is so remote to it's growing 'core' as to make little impact, but it is the sort of 'mud' that will be easily slung in the forthcoming campaign.
If this is accurate it is an utter disgrace for any UK party to align itself with a representative of Korwin-Mikke's party:-
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Yes. It's not about members or supporters being fascist per se, but the patronising absurdity of people continually wanting to quell discussion of fascist (or racist and other reactionary) themes.
Now Chuka Umunna has gone and touched the third rail as well.
a stream of Ukip candidates and supporters have come out with the most offensive and racist things over the months.”
“What really worries me about this is there is not more of a row about the things we see coming out of Ukip. It’s almost as if people price this in.
The last sentence seems especially pertinant.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...na-on-Ukip-vile-abhorrent-and-un-British.html
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Yes I am, though I don't evangalise about it on message boards.
Pathetic.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Just so we get this 100% clear - that's yes, you did make this?
And you're claiming that despite you posting it on a UKIP thread and the words and logic being yours regarding UKIP, that it's not about UKIP. Is that right?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Then, following on from your (justified) highlighting of UKIPs despicable bedfellows, can I ask you to pursue with equal vigor some of your own Party's equally despicable bedfellows - the PVEM (Mexican Greens) whose list of crimes is long but the latest includes being involved in the paramilitary attacks and murders of Zapatistas in Chiapas recently? Afaik they are still a member of your "International".
Ta.
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