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UK Votes to Leave EU

"One of the key problems with Eu immigrants being able to undercut local wages is the UK's adoption of the Swedish derogation to the agency workers directive"

aside from a seriously


well now i can see why a free market might not be the best proposition for the UK after article 50
 
the 'lol people in those areas who voted out are the ones that get the most money' was remiding me of something. Not that its nonsense cos its the business owners getting the subsidies that then are not passed onto the worker in form of higher wages. It reminded me of that sneer about rioters. 'Why do they trash their own areas? lol the idiots' they never owned it and are reminded daily
t celebrates the necessarily inclusive solidarity, care and ambition of the working class
bring back methodism I say
 
Not sure if this has been posted yet. Great article from the always-excellent Matt Taibi:

"Were I British, I'd probably have voted to Remain. But it's not hard to understand being pissed off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU. Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you "children," and castigating you for being insufficiently appreciative of, say, the joys of submitting to a European Supreme Court that claims primacy over the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights."

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened
 
What have you got against Methodism...apart from the no drinking, no gambling stuff...oh and the god bit?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Seem to recall EP Thompson really laid into Methodism in Making of the English Working Class. Sublimated sexual frenzy to prop up the old order. Sounds more exciting than a coffee morning for the Africa missions, mind.
 
Lapavistas on Brexit:

Now, at the same time what we also have is an advanced and very prevalent sense that the lower social classes in Britain have of loss of control over their environment, loss of sovereignty over their own country, and a decline in democracy. The two go together. And that's the biggest lesson of the referendum: sovereignty and democracy and command over the conditions of life--and, in a sense, the country--for poor people go together. There was a prevalent sense of loss in Britain.

Now, the upper class, the rich, the better-off, the upper middle class all came out in favor of remaining in the E.U. It was natural, natural that the poor would come out against and say no, no, we don't want that. And that's what happened. <snip>

What this means in the context of Britain--which would obviously be used elsewhere in Europe as well--is realistic proposals on what democracy would mean today. Democracy is very important. We must, as the left make proposals, have to actually mean things to people where they live, that they feel that they can command their own circumstances, they can command the conditions of life at the neighborhood and at the workplace. That's what democracy must mean. And we must propose that clearly.

This, I repeat, is impossible without some element of national sovereignty. The left has for too long been highly apprehensive of any idea of national sovereignty. This is impossible to do today. We must reestablish the meaning of national sovereignty from a left-wing perspective.

That must also go with a radical economic program that allows greater democracy, more sovereignty to have content. This means nationalizing banks. It means nationalizing steel industry, nationalizing the railways. Public services and so on must be boosted. All these progressive things that we want to see must be put coherently on the table, but together--I repeat--with a broader program of democracy and sovereignty for people and for nation.
 
His comments at the end are kind of interesting too, about the reaction on Greek left:

I came here to Athens yesterday after the British vote in the evening. I saw the climate in London in the morning and the climate in Athens in the evening. No one expected, of course, this direction of voting. Greek establishment was certain that Remain would win. And how wrong were they? There was great shock this morning.

But among the left, especially the left that is radical and ready to continue the fight for justice and different policies in Greece and recapturing democracy and sovereignty in Greece, the result has been greeted with elation, I have to tell you. The result was actually a boost, a great boost to the radical left that wishes to continue the fight that was basically abandoned by SYRIZA last summer when it surrendered to the lenders. This was a great boost.

But to continue that fight and to bring justice and a new social situation in Greece, the left needs, urgently, new ideas, such as the ones that I have suggested, new ideas about what should happen to this country. And it should bear in mind that the unraveling of the European Union is well advanced now and Greek exit from the Monetary Union, and possibly from the European Union, is something that's beginning to shape up more and more concretely on a daily basis after the events of Brexit.

So the radical left must prepare again.
source above
 
Seem to recall EP Thompson really laid into Methodism in Making of the English Working Class. Sublimated sexual frenzy to prop up the old order. Sounds more exciting than a coffee morning for the Africa missions, mind.
In his case it was sublimated father-killing.
 
His comments at the end are kind of interesting too, about the reaction on Greek left:

source above
Makes a simple but important point. When people (ok remain voters) point out UK austerity didn't come from the EU and was 'homegrown' they ignore that it was actually those that imposed austerity without the EU who were the main political backers of the EU and Remain.. So any anti-austerity impulse, anything against these scumbags had to be anti-eu. Politically, to refuse the option to ruin their plans by voting leave could only be seen as pro-austerity.
 
1. That isn't what the article claims. It is not about people feeling disenfranchised; it is about them being disenfranchised. We live in a system of representative democracy, where there is little or no representation on offer for large sections of the multi-ethnic working class; as has been said many many times before, this creates a political vacuum which will be filled...hopefully from the left with politics that celebrates the necessarily inclusive solidarity, care and ambition of the working class, but if not then it will be divisive stories of race, nation or even a very singular and fearful me and mine.

2. It is naïve to think that any of us are really free to choose our political responses; we may have more or less choices available (which is much of the thrust of the piece) but to think we are not all of us circumscribed to some degree by the circumstances which have produced those choices, is akin to day dreaming.

3. I read the article as an attempted explanation not an excuse. I am also not willing to claim to understand every angry working class cross, so that I can assert with certainty that not one was a 'cry for help' even when articulated in terms of immigrants putting downward pressure on terms and conditions.

4. Again I read not an apology but an attempt to understand; not something written by a deep seated bigot, but by somebody trying to come to terms with a shock...I don't think he is entirely successful but he is having a go.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Nice reasoned thoughtful reply.

My main problem is that he is claiming that people are attracted to the far right because they don't understand what is going on in the world and that this is somehow the default response, therefore making it acceptable. "They knew there was something wrong round the immigration business, even if they didn’t quite know what it was and mixed it up with other, nastier stuff" and ".they tend to blame the new arrivals rather than the system driving them."

Whether intended as explanation or excuse, it is making being racist easier by normalising and playing down how serious it is. My niece suffered aggressive verbal abuse the morning of the result. She was with her 7 year old daughter and while my niece is OK her daughter is finding it difficult to deal with.
Hiding behind a political argument is just putting

There is also a sense of I'm better than the working class and those low skilled immigrants running through the article
1. That isn't what the article claims. It is not about people feeling disenfranchised; it is about them being disenfranchised. We live in a system of representative democracy, where there is little or no representation on offer for large sections of the multi-ethnic working class; as has been said many many times before, this creates a political vacuum which will be filled...hopefully from the left with politics that celebrates the necessarily inclusive solidarity, care and ambition of the working class, but if not then it will be divisive stories of race, nation or even a very singular and fearful me and mine.

2. It is naïve to think that any of us are really free to choose our political responses; we may have more or less choices available (which is much of the thrust of the piece) but to think we are not all of us circumscribed to some degree by the circumstances which have produced those choices, is akin to day dreaming.

3. I read the article as an attempted explanation not an excuse. I am also not willing to claim to understand every angry working class cross, so that I can assert with certainty that not one was a 'cry for help' even when articulated in terms of immigrants putting downward pressure on terms and conditions.

4. Again I read not an apology but an attempt to understand; not something written by a deep seated bigot, but by somebody trying to come to terms with a shock...I don't think he is entirely successful but he is having a go.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Thanks for the well reasoned and thoughtful reply. I am going to post my thoughts on what I wrote in a separate post. It will sort of address what you have written, though not directly and is not aimed at you.
 
Not sure if this has been posted yet. Great article from the always-excellent Matt Taibi:

"Were I British, I'd probably have voted to Remain. But it's not hard to understand being pissed off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU. Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you "children," and castigating you for being insufficiently appreciative of, say, the joys of submitting to a European Supreme Court that claims primacy over the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights."

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened
I liked this, in particular this part of the ending:
It doesn't mean much to be against torture until the moment when you're most tempted to resort to it, or to have faith in voting until the result of a particular vote really bothers you. If you think there's ever such a thing as "too much democracy," you probably never believed in it in the first place.
 
...the optimal compromise is probably a straight swap of we keep paying the net £10 billion into the kitty to get single market access and ditch the political stuff & free-movement ( moving to insisting on job offers, specific skills etc..) ....a bit like the Common Market really....

....this could be acceptbale to the following key strands of opinion : whilst the federalists in EU bureaucracy are gung-ho for Brexit & see it as re-invigorating the integration project the realists are hardly delighted to wave good bye to the 2nd biggest net contributor even if we are a constant pain-in-the-arse. Most national governments and the business lobby groups can also see what a mutual-assured cluster-fuck it would be to all sides to go hostile on this process and start trade war tit-for-tat....
 
Makes a simple but important point. When people (ok remain voters) point out UK austerity didn't come from the EU and was 'homegrown' they ignore that it was actually those that imposed austerity without the EU who were the main political backers of the EU and Remain.. So any anti-austerity impulse, anything against these scumbags had to be anti-eu. Politically, to refuse the option to ruin their plans by voting leave could only be seen as pro-austerity.

nah. Londoners, in particular, have some long, hard thinking to do for sure but to characterise 78% of voters in Lambeth and >60% in most inner London boroughs as being pro-austerity is simply wrong.
 
...the optimal compromise is probably a straight swap of we keep paying the net £10 billion into the kitty to get single market access and ditch the political stuff & free-movement ( insisting on job offers, specific skills etc..) ....a bit like the Common Market really....

....this could be acceptbale to the following key strands of opinion : whilst the federalists in EU bureaucracy are gung-ho for Brexit & see it as re-invigorating the integration project the realists are hardly delighted to wave good bye to the 2nd biggest net contributor even if we are a constant pain-in-the-arse. Most national governments and the business lobby groups can also see what a mutual-assured cluster-fuck it would be to all sides to go hostile on this process and start trade war tit-for-tat....

Keep free movement whilst applying to EFTA. We are not Lichtenstein nor Iceland (and are more likely to get membership if we grasp states with under half a million population have different dynamics). Issue might possibly be revisited at later date, possibly at the same time as the Swiss.

And its not the same kitty. The ancillaries are: Erasmus, Science....the things you need to tell your MP if you want them to fight for them. The rest of it would be like EEA Grants (or the Norway Grants) - reappraise how we help.

But yep, closer to the Common Market than locked in the attic of a Federal Union.
 
I dislike the look at the comments on this article elsewhere type posts, but i'm going to do one myself as i really think these really deserve to be read - as does the article itself. We're beyond dog-whistle here:

Martin’s already lost almost everything – he voted leave to spread the pain

This exchange is worth re-posting:

Kakerlake
9m ago
01
'It was a chance to kick the whole establishment where it hurt, for us to send pain the other way. And we took it.'

The thing is, you daft bitter prick, you've not just kicked the establishment but the prospects of the entire youth of the country. Well done.

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    PaulGil1 Kakerlake
    3m ago
    01
    Wooooaaahhhh, calm down eh!!! Your favourite paper has scoured the streets for fucking days for the right person so you can parade your moral outrage without fear of comeback and feel superior to a homeless man! Have some respect for dogged journalism , determined to uncover the answer which proves the narrative.
Not very cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
'So true. Why don't these people just stop moaning, get on their bikes and find work lol. The fact is, the immigrants are generally much harder workers than we are. They put us to shame with their superior work ethic' peak guardian
 
-Another loser who blames the EU for his own failures.​

-Hear hear. Personal responsibility seems to be a thing of the past.​

-So true. Why don't these people just stop moaning, get on their bikes and find work lol. The fact is, the immigrants are generally much harder workers than we are. They put us to shame with their superior work ethic.


As of last year, Parker’s council has increased his council tax by 130%. He’s been taken to court twice for non-payment and has just had a third summons.

-If he is unable to pay for a third time, will that mean he will go to prison? At least in prison he has a roof over his head and 3 meals a day.​

-If prisons so great why don't we all go?​

-I wasn't suggesting it is great by any means, but might be better than they way he is living now.​
 
btw, the 33rd British social attitudes survey was published today.

We find Britain divided along class lines. Nearly 8 in 10 of us think that the divide between social classes is wide or very wide. We are less likely now to think it possible to move between social classes than in the past, reflecting, perhaps, the fact that social mobility is not what it once was.

We observe a reaction against cuts in the form of increased support for higher spending on benefits for people who are disabled and single parents. But towards people without a job, especially those who don’t have children, the public remains unsympathetic.

Here's some class stuff from it.
 
"Were I British, I'd probably have voted to Remain. But it's not hard to understand being pissed off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU. Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you "children,"
Nicely put. I'd still vote Remain on balance, but the reaction to the result has been fucking disgusting.
 
Seem to recall EP Thompson really laid into Methodism in Making of the English Working Class. Sublimated sexual frenzy to prop up the old order. Sounds more exciting than a coffee morning for the Africa missions, mind.
the foreword (one of three) in the edition I'm halfway through hilariously adresses this by using scholarly language to say 'I know I have been getting shit for dissing methodism, but I am right so ner'
 
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