Tory UK EU Exit Referendum

[goldenecitrone]

Noted.

 

[butchersapron]

It is a myth yes. And in that, it mirrors almost exactly the rhetorical polemic of the far-right leavers - and so rather than challenging it, in fact, supports it - it merely places a positive where they place a negative.

 

[YouSir]

Capital, whether a national capital (as if there is such a thing - esp as regards UK based capital!) or as international never makes plans to damage its functioning. It threatens to do so (i.e) via claims about what a plan it doesn't like will do to labour (i.e wages. social wage). So when they say look, if you leave this will damage us/capital in these specific ways that will then effect YOU they mean that it won't (for it to do so would mean they need to take measures that damage themselves) but they want you to think it will. It will damage their ability to organise internationally, not their ability to profit off their various thieveries. That's why they don't want it to happen.

Aren't their strands of capital that would profit from Brexit though and who would, in turn, harm labour? Not talking about those making threats over leaving, I think you're right about them. But how about those who want a more US style, 'competetive' labour market who would use leaving the EU as a rationale for all sorts of attacks on wages and rights. Plus if there was an out vote it'd boost the likes of Johnson who would happily support those sort of attacks. Or maybe they'll just get their way in the EU too.

I'm inclining towards a leave vote atm. Just having a hard time seeing any real progress either way. Sharks on both sides of the tight rope.

 

[butchersapron]

Aren't their strands of capital that would profit from Brexit though and who would, in turn, harm labour? Not talking about those making threats over leaving, I think you're right about them. But how about those who want a more US style, 'competetive' labour market who would use leaving the EU as a rationale for all sorts of attacks on wages and rights. Plus if there was an out vote it'd boost the likes of Johnson who would happily support those sort of attacks. Or maybe they'll just get their way in the EU too.

I'm inclining towards a leave vote atm. Just having a hard time seeing any real progress either way. Sharks on both sides of the tight rope.

Yes, there are fractions of capital who see exit as way to improve their own individual competitive condition against other capitals (and this means attacking labour really), But they're not being held back from that by the EU. They're being helped in this by the eu - just not not the exact basis they want for their own immediate local needs/demands. Total capital, capital as a whole, and esp capital that sees and plans politically (i.e not just with their own individual god) is eu mad.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What is it with London mayors and citing Hitler?

it's a responsibility that comes with the job.

 

[DotCommunist]

does this mean the EU is worse than hitler

 

[butchersapron]

Better.

This, in fact, has been the tenor of much of the pro EU arguments on here.

 

[Dogsauce]

A mate on Facebook noticed the cropping on this graun photo:




What does it look like it might say?

Every household told: sign up now to vote in ‘historic’ EU poll

 

[DotCommunist]

michael shite has spoken

Boris, the EU and Hitler: bad taste, bad judgment | Michael White

 

[stethoscope]

EU Referendum: Brexit would hit poor hardest, says David Cameron - BBC News

Because you care so much about the poor and vulnerable, Dave.

 

[Dogsauce]

The poor, the NHS. Now they've had this Damascene conversion to giving a fuck about other people I trust post-referendum all these Tory establishment shits and swivel-eyed fuckaroos will be embracing social justice and fully funding the health service.

 

[butchersapron]

Of course his concern for those people is fake, but that argument again mirrors what many on the left who want to stay have been arguing - here and in the more general media/politics arenas. I'd like to see a response from those types that outlines why he is wrong or right beyond pointing out that fake concern.

 

[brogdale]

So, as we approach the juicy bit of the campaign, perhaps it is time to think about the "old". In this referendum I think it's fair to consider anyone aged 59 years (& 18 days) and over as the "old". They are the cohort for whom Cameron's referendum is a second attempt; Generation "EurRef II".

About 41 years ago many of them were part of the 65% turnout that produced a 67.5% 'Yes' vote in favour of remaining in the, then, EEC. What of them now? Well he pollsters reckon they're a) quite likely to vote again and b) now more likely to vote to leave the successor incarnation of the EEC.

Some 54% of voters aged 55 and over said they wanted to leave against 30% who wanted the UK to remain in the EU. But in stark contrast to younger voters, 81% of this group were certain to vote.

So, all in all, quite a challenge for Cameron especially after spending 6 years discriminating against the very generation he's seeking to counter the "old".

I'm sure that it's quite a complex psephological analysis to pick out the bones of what is motivating many of the "old" to reverse their 1975 position, but I can't help dwelling on the fact that people aged 59 and over have witnessed the entire neoliberal turn and don't like the world it has produced for them. The challenge for 'remain' will be attempting to disabuse this cohort of the temporal correlation with EEC/EU membership.

Although my memory of the EEC ref I is that of a teenager, (to young to vote!!!), I'm tempted to remember my parents/relatives tending to see the 1975 'remain' vote as something approaching a hopeful, progressive desire for European co-operation.

That's dead, isn't it?
​

 

[Smangus]

Considering that the Tories have spent the last few years making the younger members of society less affluent, pay more for further education, carry more of the weight of austerity and actively disenfranchising them from the vote (while largely protecting the most affluent elderly from all of this), it makes it a bit rich for Cameron to now be relying to a large extent on their vote to bring home the EU bacon.

 

[butchersapron]

Although my memory of the EEC ref I is that of a teenager, (to young to vote!!!), I'm tempted to remember my parents/relatives tending to see the 1975 'remain' vote as something approaching a hopeful, progressive desire for European co-operation.

That's dead, isn't it?
​

The only people i have encountered who believe the old social-europe model can ever come about through the EU are leftists on the liberal ends of the spectrum and under mid-30s. That is, those most tightly locked out from it and with little or no experience of it. That's not to say that this is across the board with that group, plenty i know are anti-EU as part of a wider left-wing politics. The liberals (and here i mean actual lib-dems and people who are in that soppy ball park) may make claims about it being their ideal for the EU as well but they know damn well it's a lie.

 

[brogdale]

Considering that the Tories have spent the last few years making the younger members of society less affluent, pay more for further education, carry more of the weight of austerity and actively disenfranchising them from the vote (while largely protecting the most affluent elderly from all of this), it makes it a bit rich for Cameron to now be relying to a large extent on their vote to bring home the EU bacon.

But that's the corner he's painted himself into, isn't it? If I were U25, fucked if I'd buy into their bullshit.

 

[Greebozz]

Who would've thought that David Cameron was so passionately for Europe, he certainly kept that rather well hidden, good on him for fighting against the rabid right wing Nazi Fascist that want to leave Europe. I think he definitely deserves an honourable to invite to the next anarchist squat party, we have a new hero championing our cause I hope you all embrace him to your heart's comrades.

 

[butchersapron]

Who would've thought that David Cameron was so passionately for Europe, he certainly kept that rather well hidden, good on him for fighting against the rabid right wing Nazi Fascist that want to leave Europe. I think he definitely deserves an honourable to invite to the next anarchist squat party, we have a new hero championing our cause I hope you all embrace him to your heart's comrades.

Give it a rest you sad unfunny clown.

 

[Greebozz]

Give it a rest you sad unfunny clown.

Well I found it funny. I feel slightly victimised here, can we have a committee meeting I think butchersapron needs to go on a cultural sensitivity and inclusion seminar.

 

[Greebozz]

It's too quiet, I'm getting worried

 

[Nylock]

It's too quiet, I'm getting worried

Fuck off you dullard.



Happy?

 

[Pickman's model]

It's too quiet, I'm getting worried

i look forward to your going quiet. permanently.

 

[Greebozz]

Fuck off you dullard.



Happy?

I think you sound like a moron, you don't display much wit or intellect, you make a dumb rude comment that child could make. One of the characteristics of Britain culture is wit and humour, why don't you try it you might really enjoy it, and grow some extra brain cells in the process. What I've said goes for anyone that makes dumb rude comments.

 

[weltweit]

I see Boris has been defending his Hitler comments to the media.

I thought the rule was that the first person who resorted to Hitler lost the argument, obviously no one told Boris.

 

[gosub]

I see Boris has been defending his Hitler comments to the media.

I thought the rule was that the first person who resorted to Hitler lost the argument, obviously no one told Boris.

EU debate takes ludicrous twist as Ken scolds Boris for Hitler comments | Coffee House

 

[weltweit]

EU debate takes ludicrous twist as Ken scolds Boris for Hitler comments | Coffee House

They deserve each other

 

[brogdale]

I think you sound like a moron, you don't display much wit or intellect, you make a dumb rude comment that child could make. One of the characteristics of Britain culture is wit and humour, why don't you try it you might really enjoy it, and grow some extra brain cells in the process. What I've said goes for anyone that makes dumb rude comments.

Concise & succinct, though.

 

[redsquirrel]

Still a big gap between online and phone polls

But the contrast in the two surveys is particularly stark, because they were conducted concurrently and deployed as similar vote adjustment methodologies as possible. In ICM’s phone poll, remain is eight points clear of leave, at 47% compared with 39%, with 14% undecided. Once the “don’t knows” are excluded, remain looks set for a clear 10-point lead, by 55% to 45%.
With the online survey, by contrast, those in favour of Brexit have a definite edge – standing on 47% to remain’s 43%, with only 10% of respondents undecided. Once they are excluded, leave’s four-point advantage is maintained, in a projected final pro-Brexit result of 52% to 48%.

 

[two sheds]

People phoned were on average older, younger people on web. But older people are much more likely to actually vote so looks like remain has it?

Errm that doesn't work does it? Older people more likely to vote to exit.

 

[steeplejack]

Both official campaigns have been an absolute clusterfuck. One side predicting world war three and financial meltdown; the other making Hitler comments that they subsequently defend, or one week suggesting that we could be like Albania if we left, then being demolished on national media by, er, the president of Albania, then saying the ocuntry will be flooded with Albanian gangsters if we stay in the EU.

sheesh.