Too many immigration threads on UK P&P?

[ViolentPanda]

We really should do stand up. I say most people think the worlds round....

Based on the fact that you know the world is round. There's masses of evidence for it.

Hardly the same thing as CLAIMING that you know what "most people" think in terms of immigration policy and British politics, is it?

You say how dare you be so presumptious, have you asked them......
Good stuff VP....

Very poor effort, balders. You've done nothing to refute the point I've made, and everything to show that you haven't got a clue.

Nice one, loser.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I see none of the anti-immigrationists have effectively dealt with the point about the concept of the nation-state and how it relates to so-called "economic migration" and how, also, some nation-states have been economically dominated by forces outside their borders.

"Globalisation 101", basically.

 

[tbaldwin]

Based on the fact that you know the world is round. There's masses of evidence for it.

Hardly the same thing as CLAIMING that you know what "most people" think in terms of immigration policy and British politics, is it?

I think MOST people are against mass immigration...If you think the evidence points the other way....Show me the evidence?

 

[Fruitloop]

Actually, I think most people don't give a muppety-fuck what you think, you deluded windbag.

 

[tbaldwin]

I see none of the anti-immigrationists have effectively dealt with the point about the concept of the nation-state and how it relates to so-called "economic migration" and how, also, some nation-states have been economically dominated by forces outside their borders.

erm effectivelly......Good word that....Might be considered a bit subjective.....

 

[tbaldwin]

Actually, I think most people don't give a muppety-fuck what you think, you deluded windbag.

Change your socks posh boy.....

 

[treelover]

Seeing as I physically can't type more than about 50 words a hour, you will be waiting a long time, however, on the moral panic issues: while the media may shape public discourse, are you NB people denying the scale of mass migration since the Blair regime and that there are issues to be discussed, oh and funny that, supporting the arguments of the blairites.

Incidentally...

...I`m not at all interested in the personal spats going on...just waiting patiently for treelover, tbaldwin etc. to turn their concerns into a cogent argument.

 

[Fruitloop]

Change your socks posh boy.....

What do you know about how 'posh' I am, fuckface? Just because I can spell and string a sentence together. Do the 'majority' a favour and boil your brainless fucking head.

 

[tbaldwin]

What do you know about how 'posh' I am, fuckface? Just because I can spell and string a sentence together. Do the majority a favour a boil your brainless fucking head.

Oh yes your one of them working class types who wins a scholarship to a private school....Sorry i forgot......

 

[Fruitloop]

Child prodigy, with an education paid for entirely by sponsorship. Just because you have all the talent and intellect of a rolled-out dried-up dog turd there's no need to let your envy get the better of you, you pointless, worthless piece of shite.

 

[Fruitloop]

What's particularly funny is the resentful inverse snobbery, that no-one from a w/c background could possibly make anything of themselves either intellectually, artistically or socially. Only when we are all grunting shop-soiled apes like yourself could we conceivably aspire to your oh-so-proletarian heights of abject fucking pointlessness.

 

[treelover]

btw, too many accussations on this thread, questioning mass immigration is a piolitical question and should be discussed as so, and not with cheap 'racist' insinuations. Why don't the NB supporters try their luck on the Meanwhile At The Bar boards?

 

[Fruitloop]

Rather dip my cock in a deep-fat fryer if it's all the same to you.

 

[nino_savatte]

btw, too many accussations on this thread, questioning mass immigration is a piolitical question and should be discussed as so, and not with cheap 'racist' insinuations. Why don't the NB supporters try their luck on the Meanwhile At The Bar boards?

So, if I read you correctly, you're suggesting that only one type of discourse on immigration be debated on this forum? You cannot narrow your debate to the terms you want, it simply isn't healthy or stimulating.

What do you mean by the phrase "mass immigration"? It's an emotionally loaded phrase that conjures up infamous tabloid headlines such as "Floods of Immigrants"!

You don't appear to have read my OP properly either. Pity.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think MOST people are against mass immigration...If you think the evidence points the other way....Show me the evidence?

You're making the claim, sunshine, it's down to you to prove your claim or shut the fuck up.

So come on then.

 

[nino_savatte]

Originally Posted by tbaldwin
I think MOST people are against mass immigration...If you think the evidence points the other way....Show me the evidence?

So who are this 'majority' and, more importantly, do you have any data to support this contention?

 

[Lock&Light]

You're making the claim, sunshine, it's down to you to prove your claim or shut the fuck up.

So come on then.

Are you really of the opinion that most people welcome mass immigration?

 

[chilango]

Seeing as I physically can't type more than about 50 words a hour, you will be waiting a long time, however, on the moral panic issues: while the media may shape public discourse, are you NB people denying the scale of mass migration since the Blair regime and that there are issues to be discussed, oh and funny that, supporting the arguments of the blairites.

there are issues to be discussed...hence this discussion.

are you denying the scale of mass emigration? skills shortage? etc etc. and all the other factors of migration that you have so far not commented upon?

the phenomenon of economically caused/motivated migration is NOT new, and is not reducable to cheap Polish labour in the UK. Doing that a) misses the complexities of the system b) lets the bosses off the hook and c) takes the debate into terrain that the racists want.


oh, calling me a Blairite? c'mon thats a SWPie style "tory" cheap shot that adds nothing to your argument.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What's particularly funny is the resentful inverse snobbery, that no-one from a w/c background could possibly make anything of themselves either intellectually, artistically or socially. Only when we are all grunting shop-soiled apes like yourself could we conceivably aspire to your oh-so-proletarian heights of abject fucking pointlessness.

Which, when you think about it, is fucking ridiculous, the kind of shit the w/c were sold by "the great and the good" for humdreds of years: "Know your place", "don't speak out of turn", "don't make waves", "we know what's best for you" and other paternalistic patronising bollocks.

Fuck all of that, and fuck anyone with that attitude. If you have a chance, you grab it, as long as doing so doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[ViolentPanda]

btw, too many accussations on this thread, questioning mass immigration is a piolitical question and should be discussed as so, and not with cheap 'racist' insinuations. Why don't the NB supporters try their luck on the Meanwhile At The Bar boards?

It's not just a political question, though. It's a social question too, as evidenced by the arguments based on social problems being caused by immigrants that have been used on immigration threads.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Rather dip my cock in a deep-fat fryer if it's all the same to you.

Interesting.

I'd rather dip your cock in a deep-fat fryer than post on matb too!

 

[nino_savatte]

IIRC, this whole immigration 'debate' was kick-started by (mainly) The Daily Express a few years ago. Never a week went by when there wasn't some headline or other screaming "IMMIGRATION" this or "IMMIGRATION" that.

 

[Fruitloop]

When my old man finally stopped organising as a communist after 30 years of effort and sacrifice, it was cap-doffing, forelock-tugging wankstains like balders that were the primary source of his disillusionment. Until all w/c people understand that 'their own' are in actuality all of those with whom they share the same material objectives irrespective of arbitrary and artificial national boundaries, rather than some reactionary nationalism that weds them irrevocably to a ruling class that is 'theirs' simply by historical and geographical coincidence, then there is truly no chance for socialism or any other kind of progressive political change in this country.

The only hope for the future is that the likes of balders are in the main so old and past it that with any luck nature will presently take its kindly course, and the rest of us can move forward with a policy not based on small-minded little-England cretinism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

IIRC, this whole immigration 'debate' was kick-started by (mainly) The Daily Express a few years ago. Never a week went by when there wasn't some headline or other screaming "IMMIGRATION" this or "IMMIGRATION" that.

Richard Desmond's takeover of the Express certainly resulted in them running more stories, but the man's reputed to be an über xenophobe, so that isn't surprising.
IMO the problem is that immigration has become a target for the frustrayions of people who have realised that the politicians are no longer listening to them. Unfortunately, an anti-immigration stance plays into the government's hands (whichever party happens to be in power) because although they know it's nigh on impossible to stop either illegal immigration or asylum seekers (and to do so would upset their friends in the city) it makes those people utterly expendable and easy to get rid of (which pleases their friends in the city).

 

[phildwyer]

When my old man finally stopped organising as a communist after 30 years of effort and sacrifice, it was cap-doffing, forelock-tugging wankstains like balders that were the primary source of his disillusionment. Until all w/c people understand that 'their own' are in actuality all of those with whom they share the same material objectives irrespective of arbitrary and artificial national boundaries, rather than some reactionary nationalism that weds them irrevocably to a ruling class that is 'theirs' simply by historical and geographical coincidence, then there is truly no chance for socialism or any other kind of progressive political change in this country.

The only hope for the future is that the likes of balders are in the main so old and past it that with any luck nature will presently take its kindly course, and the rest of us can move forward with a policy not based on small-minded little-England cretinism.

But mass immigration of people willing to do working-class jobs for breadline wages is bound to bugger up the native working class. One doesn't have to be a little Englander to notice that.

 

[nino_savatte]

When my old man finally stopped organising as a communist after 30 years of effort and sacrifice, it was cap-doffing, forelock-tugging wankstains like balders that were the primary source of his disillusionment. Until all w/c people understand that 'their own' are in actuality all of those with whom they share the same material objectives irrespective of arbitrary and artificial national boundaries, rather than some reactionary nationalism that weds them irrevocably to a ruling class that is 'theirs' simply by historical and geographical coincidence, then there is truly no chance for socialism or any other kind of progressive political change in this country.

The only hope for the future is that the likes of balders are in the main so old and past it that with any luck nature will presently take its kindly course, and the rest of us can move forward with a policy not based on small-minded little-England cretinism.

Well said. Borders only serve one master: the ruling classes. Of course right wing libertarians argue for the same, with the proviso that the market is dominant...but that's a different kind of tyranny.

 

[nino_savatte]

Richard Desmond's takeover of the Express certainly resulted in them running more stories, but the man's reputed to be an über xenophobe, so that isn't surprising.
IMO the problem is that immigration has become a target for the frustrayions of people who have realised that the politicians are no longer listening to them. Unfortunately, an anti-immigration stance plays into the government's hands (whichever party happens to be in power) because although they know it's nigh on impossible to stop either illegal immigration or asylum seekers (and to do so would upset their friends in the city) it makes those people utterly expendable and easy to get rid of (which pleases their friends in the city).

Sure and we've also seen all immigrants tarred with the same brush. The refugee has now been designated the "asylum seeker", who is often confused with the few who make bogus applications. But it is knee-jerk populism that has gained the momentum of a runaway train.

 

[Fruitloop]

Which, when you think about it, is fucking ridiculous, the kind of shit the w/c were sold by "the great and the good" for humdreds of years: "Know your place", "don't speak out of turn", "don't make waves", "we know what's best for you" and other paternalistic patronising bollocks.

Fuck all of that, and fuck anyone with that attitude. If you have a chance, you grab it, as long as doing so doesn't hurt anyone.

Well exactly. There's a long and noble tradition of w/c self-bettement and self-education both in this country and elsewhere, one that has sadly fallen off thanks to the red-neck, self-defeating anti-intellectualism of microcephalic pillocks like Mr Majority here.

I'm no w/c hero and would never claim to be, but I worked my fingers to the fucking bone with sub-standard equipment and training to get the the top of my field - putting in twice the hours that better-off yuppie-spawn did to try and force my way in to a world of (IMO) thoroughly worthwhile culture that is held in an unjustifiable stranglehold by middle-class types with every opportunity in the world. Yes I went to university, and I worked on the sly whilst narrowly avoiding fucking rickets living on 2p tins of beans, and still nearly had to bail out for lack of funds. My parents did the same, but at least a 100 pound scholarship actually meant something in the sixties rather than being a drop in the cunting ocean like it is these days. And after all that some jumped up, semi-literate cunt-rag who's never set eyes on me thinks it's funny to tell me how fucking posh I am. Auto-critique doesn't even begin to cover it.

 

[tbaldwin]

You're making the claim, sunshine, it's down to you to prove your claim or shut the fuck up.

So come on then.

I'm saying what i think....Your saying where is the proof....I'm saying if its proof you want ...go look for it....

If you think it contradicts what i think PROVE IT....

 

[chilango]

But mass immigration of people willing to do working-class jobs for breadline wages is bound to bugger up the native working class. One doesn't have to be a little Englander to notice that.

Of course.

But closing the borders won`t solve that.

Bosses want lower wages, they could:

a) use cheaper labour from abroad to drive down wages

b) use unemployed labour to drive down wages

c) move the factory abroad to where wages are lower

d) destroy the unions and force down wages regardless.

e) move to temporary and part time contracts

all of these are happenning, and have have happened.

The problem happens when the so-called Left miss this and concentrate on point a).