Too many immigration threads on UK P&P?

[brasicritique]

nah the point here is to start a thread to end the others. simply, racist voews shouldnt be given a platform, and opposition to migration is racism

But socialist totalitarians should be given a platform that allows them to randomly generalise that anyone who disagrees with them are racsists, but hey its not really about socialism is it ? its about white left wing middle class kids putting those from poorer backgrounds down.Same as the neocons methinks.

 

[brasicritique]

Oh yeah Nino dimbo you should have at least have the courage in your convictions to say who these racsist posters are.That is unless you are using the issue of race as a political football for your own selfish ideological politics.Hmmmm in which case seems to me that your more like a memeber of the BNP than those who you slander.

 

[Knotted]

A member of the articulati writes:

IMO there are plenty of posters who are pro-borders, some of whom articulate a well-reasoned (though perhaps rather instrumental) argument for their position. There are others who don't, and the problem with not being able to reasonably articulate why you hold a particular position is that it leaves you open to people thinking that you hold that position because of ignorance.

I haven't taken part in any of these threads for a while now as they have gone on and on for too long. Inevitably they have become repetitive and occasionally pointlessly agressive. But I would just like to say that the arguments on all sides are very articulate until everyone gets punch drunk and starts flailing around with tedious accusations. I've been impressed again and again by the contributions from durrutti, baldwin, belboid, treelover, revmp3, yourself and others (not that I've been paying too much attention recently).

Incidently what seems to be outraging Nino is the fact that there is growing consensus on this issue on this board. The screaming usually starts when one of the participants forgets what the disagreement was about, but can't be seen to concede anything. Just a tip.

 

[treelover]

tbh, a lot of my beef as it were, is with a broadly defined left left that finds time to put on major events such as the forthcoming rather grandly named 'Trade Union Conference Against Immigration Controls', while blithely ignoring such issues as welfare reform which is going to be massive, affect millions and cause a lot of hardship and misery. Further, a left in its broadest sense, that seems to operate a 'hierarchy of oppression' and that appears to view everything through the 'prism' of race, etc. So its 'well how will this affect asylum seekers then?,when the issue in hand may have absolutely nothing to do with them


http://www.labournet.net/antiracism/0701/noii1.html

 

[Knotted]

tbh, a lot of my beef as it were, is with a broadly defined left left that finds time to put on major events such as the forthcoming rather grandly named 'Trade Union Conference Against Immigration Controls', while blithely ignoring such issues as welfare reform which is going to be massive, affect millions and cause a lot of hardship and misery. Further, a left in its broadest sense, that seems to operate a 'hierarchy of oppression' and that appears to view everything through the 'prism' of race, etc. So its 'well how will this affect asylum seekers then?,when the issue in hand may have absolutely nothing to do with them


http://www.labournet.net/antiracism/0701/noii1.html

Actually I'm supportive of the conference if not its silly name. It proposes to do nothing against immigration controls but instead proposes and supports some fine trade union action defending migrant workers. This is vital stuff in my view but the open borders rhetoric will just alienate people. The left (in the broadest 'labour movement' sense) has got some stupid ideologies but it hasn't lost its way completely.

 

[Spion]

tbh, a lot of my beef as it were, is with a broadly defined left left that finds time to put on major events such as the forthcoming rather grandly named 'Trade Union Conference Against Immigration Controls', while blithely ignoring such issues as welfare reform which is going to be massive, affect millions and cause a lot of hardship and misery.

The conference you highlight is organised by half a dozen trades councils, not 'the left'. You are free to do exactly the same. Why not start a thread on welfare reform? You've been going on about it for ages but only as little asides in posts - I've still to see where you actually try and encourage opposition

Further, a left in its broadest sense, that seems to operate a 'hierarchy of oppression' and that appears to view everything through the 'prism' of race, etc. So its 'well how will this affect asylum seekers then?,when the issue in hand may have absolutely nothing to do with them

Where do you see this type of behaviour exactly?

 

[becky p]

A member of the articulati writes:


I haven't taken part in any of these threads for a while now as they have gone on and on for too long. Inevitably they have become repetitive and occasionally pointlessly agressive. But I would just like to say that the arguments on all sides are very articulate until everyone gets punch drunk and starts flailing around with tedious accusations. I've been impressed again and again by the contributions from durrutti, baldwin, belboid, treelover, revmp3, yourself and others (not that I've been paying too much attention recently).

Incidently what seems to be outraging Nino is the fact that there is growing consensus on this issue on this board. The screaming usually starts when one of the participants forgets what the disagreement was about, but can't be seen to concede anything. Just a tip.

Some of the debate as you say knotted has been really stimulating.
The trouble some older? posters appear to have is that they can not accept that there are differing opinions on the subject.
Perhaps their real problem is more psychological than idealogical.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Some of the debate as you say knotted has been really stimulating.
The trouble some older? posters appear to have is that they can not accept that there are differing opinions on the subject.
Perhaps their real problem is more psychological than idealogical.

I like that, "older?".

Weirdly enough, in my experience it's the youngsters who tend to be more hidebound. Self-righteous youthfulness and the impossiblity that they're ever wrong and all that.

 

[Dhimmi]

no. 100%

 

[Julie]

The subtext is always there. Mind you, not many would actually admit to being racist. It's a little like admitting to being a kiddy fiddler.

Yep. And you pointing out this truth has a couple of folks being more than a little defensive about it. Now why would that be?

 

[Julie]

But equally other people are also entitled to your views.

Oops?

 

[Lock&Light]

I like that, "older?".

Weirdly enough, in my experience it's the youngsters who tend to be more hidebound. Self-righteous youthfulness and the impossiblity that they're ever wrong and all that.

Your failure to do so hasn't stopped most of us from growing up.

 

[nino_savatte]

Your entitled to challenge any view you like.But equally other people are also entitled to your views.
Your insinuation that those who disagree with you on immigration are racist,appears to be a attempt to close down debate.
Given the evidence of how you lie on the NHS thread,its perhaps time you owned up to your own motivations.

I haven't "lied". All you have done is accept baldwin's lies. Like it or not, the discourse on immigration contains the hidden discourse of xenophobia. Perhaps you disagree with that.

You and baldwin have done nothing to really challenge my views. What you and he have done is to play fast and loose with the facts and make up things about me that are not true.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yep. And you pointing out this truth has a couple of folks being more than a little defensive about it. Now why would that be?

Exactly and what beckyp is doing is continuing the personalisation of a 'discussion' on another thread. One in which baldwin, rather than actually discuss the title of his thread, would rather question my politics and assign labels to me in order to deflect attention away from his weak argument.

 

[tbaldwin]

I haven't "lied". All you have done is accept baldwin's lies. Like it or not, the discourse on immigration contains the hidden discourse of xenophobia. Perhaps you disagree with that.

You and baldwin have done nothing to really challenge my views. What you and he have done is to play fast and loose with the facts and make up things about me that are not true.

Yes you have lied nino. The evidence is all on the NHS thread.

 

[nino_savatte]

Oh yeah Nino dimbo you should have at least have the courage in your convictions to say who these racsist posters are.That is unless you are using the issue of race as a political football for your own selfish ideological politics.Hmmmm in which case seems to me that your more like a memeber of the BNP than those who you slander.

Discussion, or should I say, narratives put forward as topics for debate on the issue of immigration tend to operate from the premise that immigration is bad and immigrants are here to "take our jobs and take advantage of our services". These narratives automatically carry within them a hidden xenophobic discourse. You may not agree with that but that it the way it works.

I'm not slandering anyone and I anticipated this sort of response from the likes of you. Rather that deal with the points that I have raised you (like too many others who have a vested interest in the subject of immigration) would rather try and smear and demonise.

 

[tbaldwin]

Yep. And you pointing out this truth has a couple of folks being more than a little defensive about it. Now why would that be?

erm oooh i dont know...

Perhaps they are all Nazis worse than Hitler?

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes you have lied nino. The evidence is all on the NHS thread.

In your imagination, baldwin. You constantly lie and you constantly try to personalise discussions whenever someone unpicks your argument. Your 'proof' of my "lies" is, in fact, a lie itself.

You lack the honesty and the courage to come clean about your real position. Furthermore, you tend to attack some shadowy "Left" group, while you tell all and sundry that you're a "socialist". The last time I checked, those who called themselves "socialists" tend to associate themselves with the political left. Perhaps you have different thoughts on that - non?

 

[nino_savatte]

nah the point here is to start a thread to end the others. simply, racist voews shouldnt be given a platform, and opposition to migration is racism

But socialist totalitarians should be given a platform that allows them to randomly generalise that anyone who disagrees with them are racsists, but hey its not really about socialism is it ? its about white left wing middle class kids putting those from poorer backgrounds down.Same as the neocons methinks.

You're paranoid.

 

[nino_savatte]

A lot of these 'discussions' on immigration have been led by the press. Perhaps one the defenders of the anti-immigration argument would like to disagree with that?

 

[Lock&Light]

Furthermore, you tend to attack some shadowy "Left" group while you tell all and sundry that you're a "socialist".

I share much of tbaldwin's position, but rather than use the solitary word 'socialist' I would prefer to describe it as democratic socialism.

 

[nino_savatte]

I share much of tbaldwin's position, but rather than use the solitary word 'socialist' I would prefer to describe it as democratic socialism.

Well, that's not what baldy tells us; he tells us that he is an "authoritarian socialist". Which means what, precisely? He never explains his 'socialism' beyond a few simplicities. So what type of 'socialism' is it? The "socialism in one country" that was beloved of Stalin?

 

[tbaldwin]

A lot of these 'discussions' on immigration have been led by the press. Perhaps one the defenders of the anti-immigration argument would like to disagree with that?

That is fairly typical of your world view,nino.

Your contempt for ordinary people is thinly disguised.

These discussions are not all led by Murdoch and the Mail much as you would like to believe.
As usual your looking for convenient scapegoats and underestimating the ability of ordinary people to think for themselves.

Of course the Mail etc try to make political capital out of the issue (with it's own politics,which equally holds ordinary people in contempt) but they are responding in part to the concerns of ordinary people.

 

[tbaldwin]

Well, that's not what baldy tells us; he tells us that he is an "authoritarian socialist". Which means what, precisely? He never explains his 'socialism' beyond a few simplicities. So what type of 'socialism' is it? The "socialism in one country" that was beloved of Stalin?

I have time and time again. But just for you again cos you asked so nicely ( by your standards)
I believe in. Democratic Socialism. That True Socialism has to be Democratic.

That the authority of the majority should be the deciding factor in the running of society.

I want to see a massive redistribution of wealth and power nationally and internationally.

Sorry....Is that too simple for you....

 

[nino_savatte]

That is fairly typical of your world view,nino.

Your contempt for ordinary people is thinly disguised.

These discussions are not all led by Murdoch and the Mail much as you would like to believe.
As usual your looking for convenient scapegoats and underestimating the ability of ordinary people to think for themselves.

Of course the Mail etc try to make political capital out of the issue (with it's own politics,which equally holds ordinary people in contempt) but they are responding in part to the concerns of ordinary people.

Nowhere in this post do you produce a counter-argument to my point that the anti-immigration campaign is being led by the press (and the rest of the media). All you can do is hurl baseless accusations at me like, "As usual your looking for convenient scapegoats and underestimating the ability of ordinary people to think for themselves".

How the fuck have I 'scapegoated' the press? You have a lot to learn about the media, moral panics and use of ideologically loaded language in discourses. If one were to take your argument and employ to the issue of "paedophiles living in the community", anyone would think that paedophilia and child abuse was extremely commonplace, when it isn't.

 

[Pigeon]

Your contempt for ordinary people is thinly disguised.

These discussions are not all led by Murdoch and the Mail much as you would like to believe.
As usual your looking for convenient scapegoats and underestimating the ability of ordinary people to think for themselves.

Disregarding the question of what it is, precisely, that sets nino apart from the "ordinary people", are you actually that naive that you believe that the media doesn't shape people's perceptions of reality at all?

 

[nino_savatte]

I have time and time again. But just for you again cos you asked so nicely ( by your standards)
I believe in. Democratic Socialism. That True Socialism has to be Democratic.

That the authority of the majority should be the deciding factor in the running of society.

I want to see a massive redistribution of wealth and power nationally and internationally.

Sorry....Is that too simple for you....

You never miss an opportunity to tell me how superior your ideology is to me and how your view of socialism is as pure as the driven snow. Your ideas of 'socialism' is predicated on the notion that the state is the fount of all that is socialistic. The state is part of the problem and provides and obstacle to socialism. I guess that's too complicated for you - non?

True socialism is internationalist and real socialism does not equal authoritarianism. And who is this "majority" that you speak of? Do you speak for 'them'?

 

[Fruitloop]

Heaven forfend

 

[nino_savatte]

Disregarding the question of what it is, precisely, that sets nino apart from the "ordinary people", are you actually that naive that you believe that the media doesn't shape people's perceptions of reality at all?

Exactly and like the paedophilia campaign orchestrated by the press a few years ago, this current anti-immigration campaign is a "top down" movement.

 

[Pigeon]

I believe in. Democratic Socialism. That True Socialism has to be Democratic.

Motherhood? Apple pie?