Too many immigration threads on UK P&P?

[tbaldwin]

Child prodigy, with an education paid for entirely by sponsorship. Just because you have all the talent and intellect of a rolled-out dried-up dog turd there's no need to let your envy get the better of you, you pointless, worthless piece of shite.

aaahh yes Well done you have risen to the top of the Meritocracy with a little help of the private school system...
What talent....

 

[nino_savatte]

aaahh yes Well done you have risen to the top of the Meritocracy with a little help of the private school system...
What talent....

Nowt like a smear, eh balders?

You understand what is meant by the word "populism", don't you?

 

[phildwyer]

Of course.

But closing the borders won`t solve that.

Bosses want lower wages, they could:

a) use cheaper labour from abroad to drive down wages

b) use unemployed labour to drive down wages

c) move the factory abroad to where wages are lower

d) destroy the unions and force down wages regardless.

e) move to temporary and part time contracts

all of these are happenning, and have have happened.

The problem happens when the so-called Left miss this and concentrate on point a).

But (a) is easiest to do, and is being done most successfully at the moment.

George Bush cracks me up on this issue. On the one hand, large parts of his voter base are bigots, so he plans to build a wall across the Mexican border. On the other hand, his real base are employers, so he's *simultaneously* giving amnesties to illegal aliens.

British employers are playing on liberals' fears of seeming to be racist in order to import cheap labour. This will definitely result in a fall in wages for the native working class. Why wouldn't they oppose mass immigration?

 

[urbanrevolt]

"But mass immigration of people willing to do working-class jobs for breadline wages is bound to bugger up the native working class. One doesn't have to be a little Englander to notice that."

Of course and immigration controls- dividing the working class play straight into the hands of the bosses.

Chilango, who do you mean by the so-called left? Most of what passes for the revolutionary left do have a no borders position at least in theory.

I've never outside of these boards seen or heard anyone argue from the left against immigration.

Chilango is right that miltiant trade unionism and a united working class is necessary to fight against low wages, to fight job cuts, to fight casualisation.

If the unions don;t also fight for the rights of migrant labour, to fight against immigration controls and thew shit wages and conditions of illegal jobs then the bosses will obviously exploit any division in the working class.

 

[tbaldwin]

You understand what is meant by the word "populism", don't you?

I understand that people who claim to be socialists who use populist as some kind of insult are twats.
What do they want an unpopular form of Socialism?

 

[Fruitloop]

No, I was at the top of the meritocracy long before, which was the only reason why a private school was prepared to let me go there for free for two fucking years - for their own institutional kudos, not my benefit.

I new you were a fucking tool, but I hadn't realised your reading comprehension was in such a parlous state.

The sole bright spark on the horizon is that your whole politics is simply a 'tale told by an idiot', and is thus mercifully unlikely to produce any material effect whatsoever. I think you're well on your way to being my first ever 'ignore' candidate, as spelling it out for you time and again is just too fucking dull to contemplate.

 

[tbaldwin]

Sadly i reckon your probably telling the truth...But there are millions of people who are not all right wing/racist etc who are against economic migration for lots of reasons. Ordinary trade unionists and people from all classes and races.
If the Left ignores those people it has only itself to blame for its lack of influence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm saying what i think....Your saying where is the proof....I'm saying if its proof you want ...go look for it....

If you think it contradicts what i think PROVE IT....

In other words, you're talking shit, you know you're talking shit, but you haven't got the balls to admit it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I understand that people who claim to be socialists who use populist as some kind of insult are twats.
What do they want an unpopular form of Socialism?

You really do need to get yourself a dictionary, you soapy twat.

 

[tbaldwin]

You really do need to get yourself a dictionary, you soapy twat.

VP i have been wondering how someone with all your talent remained just a private in the army ? And then got a job with the home office?

 

[chilango]

Chilango, who do you mean by the so-called left? Most of what passes for the revolutionary left do have a no borders position at least in theory.

I`m referring to the likes of tbaldwin, treelover et al. who define themselves as on the left.

 

[chilango]

British employers are playing on liberals' fears of seeming to be racist in order to import cheap labour. This will definitely result in a fall in wages for the native working class. Why wouldn't they oppose mass immigration?

Maybe...but my opposition to stricter immigration controls is nowt to do with not wanting to appear "racist", but based on a belief in the right to freedom of movement.

I strongly believe that the whole economic migrants cause low wages is a red herring.

Yes, you`re right its easy(ish) for the bosses to implement, but say we stop immigration...what happens then? the bosses go for one of the many other options I llisted, most of which are just as easy, and wages fall anyway.

However, we are left with a political climate far to the right (cos any succesful anti-immigration campaign will benefit the right) and a divided and weakned left...leaving us in a far worse position to organise in order to raise wages etc.

 

[phildwyer]

VP i have been wondering how someone with all your talent remained just a private in the army ?

Do you seriously believe that?

 

[tbaldwin]

Do you seriously believe that?

Thats a good question. I think i'd better avoid answering it.

 

[urbanrevolt]

The problem with this thread and all tbaldwin's threads on his pet obsession hatred of migrants is that they never listen to the arguments.

I wrote before and several times before that :
Militant trade unionism and a united working class is necessary to fight against low wages, to fight job cuts, to fight casualisation.

If the unions don;t also fight for the rights of migrant labour, to fight against immigration controls and thew shit wages and conditions of illegal jobs then the bosses will obviously exploit any division in the working class.

Tbaldwin and his 'left' friends never answer these points.

 

[tbaldwin]

The problem with this thread and all tbaldwin's threads on his pet obsession hatred of migrants is that they never listen to the arguments.

.

Do you seriously think i hate immigrants?

 

[phildwyer]

Thats a good question. I think i'd better avoid answering it.

Miles gloriosus innit.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Do you seriously think i hate immigrants?

I don't know-you seem mighty obsessed by it, I partly put it in to see if you actually listen to any points made- probably should have said hatred of migration but even if that's not the case then why don't you answer the main points

immigration controls serve the needs of the bosses by dividng the working class making a section of us 'illegal'.

That's at the moment anyway what contolrs are mainly about not stemming numbers but creating a two tier workforce.

Socialists should therefore campaign for the right of all to stay and to work and for the unity of the working class to undercut the bosses' attempts to divide us.

 

[Knotted]

I see none of the anti-immigrationists have effectively dealt with the point about the concept of the nation-state and how it relates to so-called "economic migration" and how, also, some nation-states have been economically dominated by forces outside their borders.

I think the nastiness of this thread is characterised not so much by the yelps of 'racism' or even the dishonest characterisations "immigrants stealing our jobs" but these bullying demands to answer idiotic non-questions and watching poor Balders as he inevitably fails. That and the sneering elitism of course. But anyway I'm going to take you up on this one because it seems to go to the root of your ideas.

Dealing with your OP is very easy. Every single sentence except for the last is just plain non sequiter statement. That's quite a feat by the way! Anyway I'm left with the option of just listing the statements that I agree with and those I disagree with and I doubt you would be that interested. The last sentence is reasonable enough and even follows logically from the previous sentence, however I doubt anyone here would disagree with it. So insofar as you present an argument I agree with you. Immigrants are not to blame for national malaise. Anyone disagree?

But to give you a better (in my opinion) version of internationalism than the two you presented, how about socialist internationalism? World wide working class solidarity without any ideolotgical frippery. No nationalism, no supra-nationalism, no pitting the interests of immigrants against non migrants, no programmatic scripture disguised as morality, no lots of other things just the 'communication and co-operation between workingmen's societies existing in different countries and aiming at the same end' to quote the general rules of the International Workingmens' Association of 1864. Of course founding an international on these lines is another question...

 

[treelover]

I'm afraid thats because of the fear of possibly violently being shouted down(been there, seen it, had the t-shirt) .I have said on many occassions the far left always try to (literally)shout down any challenges that doesn't fit in with their worldview which is particularly narrow by definition

've never outside of these boards seen or heard anyone argue from the left against immigration.

.

 

[audiotech]

Oh yes your one of them working class types who wins a scholarship to a private school....Sorry i forgot......

That's Red Jezza - one of yours I believe?

 

[phildwyer]

That's Red Jezza - one of yours I believe?

One of a kind, certainly. Thank God.

 

[ViolentPanda]

VP i have been wondering how someone with all your talent remained just a private in the army ? And then got a job with the home office?

Wonder away.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you seriously believe that?

If you wish to insinuate anything have the gumption to come right out and say it, sweaty-palms.

 

[phildwyer]

If you wish to insinuate anything have the gumption to come right out and say it, sweaty-palms.

You do the same, miles gloriosus.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Miles gloriosus innit.

You'll probably have to explain the reference to balders.

I find it quite touching that you come out with something like this, but I'm concerned that you're projecting your own boastfulness and self0regard onto me.

 

[phildwyer]

You'll probably have to explain the reference to balders.

I find it quite touching that you come out with something like this, but I'm concerned that you're projecting your own boastfulness and self0regard onto me.

Tell us a war story grandad.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Tell us a war story grandad.

Oh please.

You'll have to try much harder than that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You do the same, miles gloriosus.

There's a subtle difference.

You're name-calling, and rather pathetically at that, whereas your sweaty hands and their perambulations are (you might say unfortunately) fact.

 

[phildwyer]

Oh please.

You'll have to try much harder than that.

No seriously, were you ever in a war?