third position fascism

[phildwyer]

[

Read some Nazi propaganda from the 30s, look at what they say about capitalism and related topics, then tell me that a critique of capitalism that emphasizes financial capital as opposed to other sectors as being uniquely bad is not a concept used by fascists

As I say, my point is that finance capital has grown into a position of dominance over the last 30 or so years.

In other words, it did not occupy such a position when the Nazis said it did. It is not therefore uniquely bad in any absolute or ethical sense. But it is uniquely bad in the empirical and historical sense (which was not the sense in which the Nazis said it was).

But in any case, you seem to be implying that to hold absolutely any belief in common with Nazis somehow makes one complicit with them. Surely you cannot mean that?

 

[frogwoman]

This might be a fruitful topic for clarification.

I've never truly got my head around any of Marx's original writing about finance capital but I can tell that say Loren Goldner writing about 'fictitious capital' is saying something quite different from a neo-fascist talking about 'finance capital' see e.g.
http://libcom.org/library/fictitious-capital-loren-goldner

Thanks I really like Loren Goldner. And I've been looking for a Marxist analysis of this for a while

 

[chilango]

In answer to my question about fascism: it refers to traditional National Socialism as existed in Germany from approx. the early 30s through 1945?

That was one strand of fascism, that I'm referring to as "trad NS" for short here. The third positionist strand of fascism that the thread is discussing sees some of its origins in the SA (brownshirts) and the more "left" fascist ideas of Strasser et al. But also from Italian fascism, and other strands of fascism too such as that espoused by Julius Evola, Codreneau (iirc) Chesterton, Belloc etc etc.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

What that seems to be, is an examination of what happened in Germany during that couple of decades, and then fashioning a description. In other words, making a definition for a specific occurrence; as opposed to creating a definition of general application that also is applicable to the specific instance.

 

[phildwyer]

fictitious capital

As I said last time we had this most interesting discussion, all capital is fictional.

It is fictional in the sense that it does not exist.

A more apposite distinction today is between referential capital (which refers to something beyond finance) and nonreferential capital (derivatives etc).

 

[frogwoman]

[


As I say, my point is that finance capital has grown into a position of dominance over the last 30 or so years.

In other words, it did not occupy such a position when the Nazis said it did. It is not therefore uniquely bad in any absolute or ethical sense. But it is uniquely bad in the empirical and historical sense (which was not the sense in which the Nazis said it was).

But in any case, you seem to be implying that to hold absolutely any belief in common with Nazis somehow makes one complicit with them. Surely you cannot mean that?

That's not what I'm saying at all, you are the one who always talks about the similarity of peoples beliefs to fascists, i mean fuck i probably hold some beliefs in common with them like that the sky is blue and the sun rises in the east and sets in the west

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Thanks I really like Loren Goldner. And I've been looking for a Marxist analysis of this for a while

There are quite a few pieces that come up if you put 'Loren Goldner Fictitious Capital' into Google. Several new ones since I last tried it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Read some Nazi propaganda from the 30s, look at what they say about capitalism and related topics, then tell me that a critique of capitalism that emphasizes financial capital as opposed to other sectors as being uniquely bad is not a concept used by fascists

Rather than reading propaganda, better to look at the history of the relationship between the Third Reich, and the German bankers, industrialists and capitalists of the time. Look at what they did as opposed to what they said.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

People were saying that long before we were born tbh.

The investment banking industry as has existed in the past 20 years or so, is unlike anything that existed before, in terms of scale if nothing else.

 

[frogwoman]

Rather than reading propaganda, better to look at the history of the relationship between the Third Reich, and the German bankers, industrialists and capitalists of the time. Look at what they did as opposed to what they said.

Of course, he's arguing that a critique of finance capital as uniquely bad isn't a fascist idea, when it is important to look at fascist ideas to determine if that's actually true

 

[quiquaquo]

theres a myriad. In southern europe for example race has never been that big an issue..at least pre recent immigration . Fascism tends to end up identified with traditional values, the church etc .

Simply untrue as regards Italy unless you wish to interpret "Facetta Nera" as an ode to anti racism perhaps!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

That was one strand of fascism, that I'm referring to as "trad NS" for short here. The third positionist strand of fascism that the thread is discussing sees some of its origins in the SA (brownshirts) and the more "left" fascist ideas of Strasser et al. But also from Italian fascism, and other strands of fascism too such as that espoused by Julius Evola, Codreneau (iirc) Chesterton, Belloc etc etc.

Not to mention that the German Worker's Party, the predecessor to the National Socialist Party, had leftist tendencies as well.

 

[phildwyer]

The investment banking industry as has existed in the past 20 years or so, is unlike anything that existed before, in terms of scale if nothing else.

Oh yes. And especially as it has existed over the last 10 years. Deregulation seemed to increase exponentially, almost like capital itself.

 

[phildwyer]

Of course, he's arguing that a critique of finance capital as uniquely bad isn't a fascist idea, when it is important to look at fascist ideas to determine if that's actually true

I'm saying it's not a uniquely fascist idea.

Anyone who doesn't understand why finance capital is unqiuely bad today has spent the last 10 years under a rock.

Come to think of it, that explains a lot...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

That was one strand of fascism, that I'm referring to as "trad NS" for short here. The third positionist strand of fascism that the thread is discussing sees some of its origins in the SA (brownshirts) and the more "left" fascist ideas of Strasser et al. But also from Italian fascism, and other strands of fascism too such as that espoused by Julius Evola, Codreneau (iirc) Chesterton, Belloc etc etc.

Are there any recognisably fascist forms that actually advocated something that was recognisably workers control of the means of production?

Or does it always ever only go as far as some sort of dirigisme or corporatism?

ETA: or would worker's control automatically disqualify it from being fascism?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Oh yes. And especially as it has existed over the last 10 years. Deregulation seemed to increase exponentially, almost like capital itself.

Apparently, controls since 2008 have meant a loss of 100 billion in profits for the investment banking industry - but it's coming up with new devices, and the profits are starting to grow again.

The interesting question is: profit for what? What does the investment banking industry give us that deservedly earns a profit?

Arguably investment banking has grown hand in hand with economic globalization - both need serious rethinking.

 

[chilango]

Are there any recognisably fascist forms that actually advocated something that was recognisably workers control of the means of production?

Not that I know of.

But then, even the more left talking fash tend to talk about the "social" rather than the "workers".

 

[phildwyer]

i mean fuck i probably hold some beliefs in common with them like that the sky is blue and the sun rises in the east and sets in the west

Right. Well I hold in common with them the view that finance capital is especially bad, at least as regards the empirical situation today.

Does that make me a bad person?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Not that I know of.

But then, even the more left talking fash tend to talk about the "social" rather than the "workers".

Yeah, I don't know of any either but I thought I'd ask. Seems like a potential acid test perhaps.

What I get from the stuff I've read on that side of the fence is that they get very waffly around those kinds of questions.

 

[phildwyer]

Apparently, controls since 2008 have meant a loss of 100 billion in profits for the investment banking industry - but it's coming up with new devices, and the profits are starting to grow again.

The interesting question is: profit for what? What does the investment banking industry give us that deservedly earns a profit?

Arguably investment banking has grown hand in hand with economic globalization - both need serious rethinking.

It's called "usury."

Unless usury is vigilantly guarded against, it will inevitably take over the world. That's the nature of the beast.

It's in no-one's interests, no-one controls it. Money takes on a life of its own when it reproduces.

 

[frogwoman]

Right. Well I hold in common with them the view that finance capital is especially bad, at least as regards the empirical situation today.

Does that make me a bad person?

I never said you were a bad person and given that I'd actually quite like to discuss the topic if the thread, I'd rather we did that rather than whether we're nice people or not

 

[chilango]

Yeah, I don't know of any either but I thought I'd ask. Seems like a potential acid test perhaps.

What I get from the stuff I've read on that side of the fence is that they get very waffly around those kinds of questions.

Heh. Yeah. I don't read that much of their stuff in any detail tbh.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Right. Well I hold in common with them the view that finance capital is especially bad, at least as regards the empirical situation today.

Does that make me a bad person?

You could actually argue (I wouldn't personally, but I could see how to construct the argument) that it's actually industrial capitalism / consumerism that's the problem vis a vis e.g. climate change, resource depletion etc and finance capital might actually be helping by destabilising the system by generating ludicriously unsustainable paper claims on wealth.

Thus it is possible to refine the definition of fictitious capital offered initially; it is not merely the paper claims (stocks, bonds, income from the sale and rental of land and real property) in excess of total surplus value; it is the capitalized "current value" of total income-producing assets in excess of their value, defined as the socially necessary labor time of REproducing them today. The fundamental tendency of capitalism, through increased productivity of labor, is to cheapen all commodities, including the universal commodity labor power (the source of all value), while at the same time the capitalist class, central bank and capitalist state are mobilized to preserve existing capitalizations, at least for the class as a whole (while periodically sacrificing the weaker capitals) until they are overwhelmed by the next crisis.

We now get to the nub of the matter: has capitalism exhausted itself as a mode of production capable of expanding the material reproduction of humanity? Has capital, in Marx's formulation, become an obstacle to itself?

http://libcom.org/library/fictitious-capital-loren-goldner

 

[Bernie Gunther]

However it's pretty clear that it's widely understood by many people that their schools and hospitals are being fucked up by austerity measures that became necessary to "pay off some posh wankers' gambling debts" (actual quote from one of my regular 'taxi driver agitprop' sessions)

So as a populist account I can perfectly well see how it's expedient to simplify things like that.

 

[phildwyer]

You could actually argue (I wouldn't personally, but I could see how to construct the argument) that it's actually industrial capitalism / consumerism that's the problem vis a vis e.g. climate change, resource depletion etc and finance capital might actually be helping by destabilising the system by generating ludicriously unsustainable paper claims on wealth.

Well yes, you could. Clearly there will come a day when money isn't worth the paper its not printed on, and we'll be back to bullion. I don't see how that would benefit the likes of us though.

 

[phildwyer]

However it's pretty clear that it's widely understood by many people that their schools and hospitals are being fucked up by austerity measures that became necessary to "pay off some posh wankers' gambling debts" (actual quote from one of my regular 'taxi driver agitprop' sessions)

So as a populist account I can perfectly well see how it's expedient to simplify things like that.

Is it really a simplification? Sounds about right to me.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So I can see the appeal from a populist point of view of this sort of stuff in conjunction with the "posh wankers' gambling debts" critique ...

CP sees itself as stated above, as neo-fascists who have moved beyond left and right. They have their roots (well, they have deeper roots, but this will do for this piece) in the occupation of a council owned building, a casa, in Rome about 10 years back. This, it was claimed was because of the terrible housing situation working class families faced in the city, as an exposure of the damage that neo-liberalism was doing to them through forced eviction, and wider of the real estate housing bubble that financial capital was imposing nationally. An ideological response to a social need.

That's the casa bit, what about the Pound bit? Pound refers to the genius US fascist poet Ezra Pound - that's normally as far as the story goes. But it's actually a bit deeper than that. It's a reference to Pounds theory of 'rent as usury' (and there goes the thread). More on this when i get to the Social Loan later. But deeper still, his theory of the casa as the home, the holy place, the place which capital, finance capital, should not be allowed to enter. In order to stop the jews/finance capital battering down the doors of the casa a strong state is required. One a bit like the Manifesto of Verona specifies.

But there's more, the state itself is a casa, a home, a holy place, and in order to safeguard this casa it needs to be removed from the control of foreign or hidden manipulators (economic or political – the IMF, the World Bank etc).

Then, even more, once europe has all these strong safe casas, they can then form a larger casa and impose social protectionism across the continent and against international capital.

All sounds great doesn't it? The original occupation was for white italian families only. That's what a casa at that level means. That's what it means on every other level too. This is what the rhetoric about protection from capital means, the IMF etc means.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/third-position-fascism.319080/page-2#post-12827484

 

[SpineyNorman]

What that seems to be, is an examination of what happened in Germany during that couple of decades, and then fashioning a description. In other words, making a definition for a specific occurrence; as opposed to creating a definition of general application that also is applicable to the specific instance.

No, not at all (for a start, that definition fits Italian fascism perfectly as well).

 

[phildwyer]

No, not at all (for a start, that definition fits Italian fascism perfectly as well).

Can I suggest that everyone just ignore this twat?

He usually goes away if no-one responds to him.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Did someone just fart?