third position fascism

[frogwoman]

And the racism. But there are many undeniably good ideas there too, especially the role they ascribe to finance capital.

No there aren't. And ascribing a special role to finance capital as opposed to other types of capital is s fascist concept.

 

[chilango]

Johnny Canuck3 What?

What's that got to do with this thread.

 

[phildwyer]

No there aren't. And ascribing a special role to finance capital as opposed to other types of capital is s fascist concept.

No it isn't. It's the conclusion that any sensible observer would draw when looking at the C21st world. Capitalism has moved from an industrial to a financial phase, that's undeniable as far as I can see. Have a go though if you like.

 

[Pickman's model]

No there aren't. And ascribing a special role to finance capital as opposed to other types of capital is s fascist concept.

dwyer's said he finds some fascist ideas useful.

 

[phildwyer]

Johnny Canuck3 What?

What's that got to do with this thread.

Third Way Fascists emphasize financial capital as the main enemy. Certain archaic cobweb Leftists think it's anti-semitic or something.

 

[phildwyer]

dwyer's said he finds some fascist ideas useful.

Call the Cheka Fool.

 

[Pickman's model]

No it isn't. It's the conclusion that any sensible observer would draw when looking at the C21st world. Capitalism has moved from an industrial to a financial phase, that's undeniable as far as I can see. Have a go though if you like.

so at a time when more things are being made than ever before in human history you're saying capitalism's moving away from being industrial. are you sure you're not making a mess of things again?

 

[Pickman's model]

Call the Cheka Fool.

no denials i see.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

][/quote]

It was Ezra Pound's Big Idea.

There's nothing necessarily anti-semitic about it, however.

The Social Credit governments that existed in the Canadian West were decidedly.....[gulp].... right-leaning.

Wasn't Social Credit first put forward by C.H. Douglas?

 

[phildwyer]

no denials i see.

Denials of what, Fool?

 

[Pickman's model]

The Social Credit governments that existed in the Canadian West were decidedly.....[gulp].... right-leaning.

saskatchewan and that d'you mean?

 

[Pickman's model]

Denials of what, Fool?

of you finding some fascist ideas useful. twat.

 

[phildwyer]

of you finding some fascist ideas useful. twat.

Which ones?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Johnny Canuck3 What?

What's that got to do with this thread.

I'm comparing the factionalism and excessive employment of jargon to describe every aspect of minutiae in the political sphere, with the same tendency in the religious sphere - often with the same consequences.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

saskatchewan and that d'you mean?

Alberta and British Columbia.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Can we ignore Phil's obvious attempts to disrupt the thread and make it all about him? Otherwise another potentially interesting thread will be ruined by the attention seeking sad act.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Saskatchewan is the home of Tommy Douglas, and a decidedly different political slant.

 

[frogwoman]

actually fascism has always placed a special emphasis on parasitic finance capital.that's part of why th are fascists and not communists, they don't oppose capitalism as a whole but only one part of it.they don't want a chance in the means of production, they are quite happy to bang on about usury and shit while getting support from large industrial capital

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

actually fascism has always placed a special emphasis on parasitic finance capital.that's part of why th are fascists and not communists, they don't oppose capitalism as a whole but only one part of it.they don't want a chance in the means of production, they are quite happy to bang on about usury and shit while getting support from large industrial capital

When you say 'fascism', what is your definition of that term?

 

[SpineyNorman]

actually fascism has always placed a special emphasis on parasitic finance capital.that's part of why th are fascists and not communists, they don't oppose capitalism as a whole but only one part of it.they don't want a chance in the means of production, they are quite happy to bang on about usury and shit while getting support from large industrial capital

The problem is that people who emphasise finance capital and present it as being uniquely parasitical as compared to good honest productive capital have no real understanding of the nature of capital, value or the process of capital accumulation etc.

 

[phildwyer]

Saskatchewan is the home of Tommy Douglas, and a decidedly different political slant.

Does the name Ted Byfield ring a bell?

 

[chilango]

I'm comparing the factionalism and excessive employment of jargon to describe every aspect of minutiae in the political sphere, with the same tendency in the religious sphere - often with the same consequences.

Hmm.

Well your quote doesn't seem the best example if that to use.

But, yes, there will be a lot of jargon, acronyms and shorthand hand used in this thread, it is after all a fairly specific topic we're discussing.

But, aside from Hitler's purge of the SA and possibly a few drunken brawls at Blood & Honour gigs I can't think of any times where the factionalism (or the employment of arcane jargon) between TPers and more trad NSers has led to bloodshed.

 

[phildwyer]

actually fascism has always placed a special emphasis on parasitic finance capital.that's part of why th are fascists and not communists, they don't oppose capitalism as a whole but only one part of it.

The point is that this part of capital (finance capital) has grown into a position of dominance over the last 30 or so years.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Does the name Ted Byfield ring a bell?

No.

 

[SpineyNorman]

When you say 'fascism', what is your definition of that term?

Very difficult to give a concise definition, it's a hard to define concept and so any attempt at a brief definition will by necessity over-simplify, but if you want one I think Robert Paxton's is about as good as you'll get:

A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.

I'd add into that claims to transcend class interests and replace them with an over-arching national interest, though on that score it's really no different from liberalism, conservatism and even modern social democracy.

 

[chilango]

Didn't Harrington post on here for a while? I'd almost want him to join the thread...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

TPers and more trad NSers has led to bloodshed.

In answer to my question about fascism: it refers to traditional National Socialism as existed in Germany from approx. the early 30s through 1945?

 

[frogwoman]

No it isn't. It's the conclusion that any sensible observer would draw when looking at the C21st world. Capitalism has moved from an industrial to a financial phase, that's undeniable as far as I can see. Have a go though if you like.

Read some Nazi propaganda from the 30s, look at what they say about capitalism and related topics, then tell me that a critique of capitalism that emphasizes financial capital as opposed to other sectors as being uniquely bad is not a concept used by fascists

 

[frogwoman]

The point is that this part of capital (finance capital) has grown into a position of dominance over the last 30 or so years.

People were saying that long before we were born tbh.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

actually fascism has always placed a special emphasis on parasitic finance capital.that's part of why th are fascists and not communists, they don't oppose capitalism as a whole but only one part of it.they don't want a chance in the means of production, they are quite happy to bang on about usury and shit while getting support from large industrial capital

The problem is that people who emphasise finance capital and present it as being uniquely parasitical as compared to good honest productive capital have no real understanding of the nature of capital, value or the process of capital accumulation etc.

This might be a fruitful topic for clarification.

I've never truly got my head around any of Marx's original writing about finance capital but I can tell that say Loren Goldner writing about 'fictitious capital' is saying something quite different from a neo-fascist talking about 'finance capital' see e.g.

In discussing fictitious capital, we must never forget that it is subordinate to, and derivative from, capital generally. It is important not to foment the illusion that the struggle is against "fictitious capital", leaving "real" capital itself unexamined.

http://libcom.org/library/fictitious-capital-loren-goldner