Therese Coffey, health workers, and the Oxford comma

[Supine]

 

[hitmouse]

naah, he banned it after and, not before. He might well have meant to ban the OC but he’s actually rather thick so got it wrong.

He would have been right too, the Oxford comma is usually an indicator of a poorly constructed sentence. It’s very occasionally useful but it’s pretty rare these days that anyone needs to say ‘my parents, god and Harvey Weinstein’ these days

Leaving aside your bizarre assertion that including a list is an indicator of a poorly constructed sentence, I did do a search before posting to see if anyone else was already discussing this urgent topic, and noticed that a fairly high proportion of the results seemed to be you slagging off this utterly innocuous piece of punctuation. Frankly, I don't think it should even have a name, since it's just putting a comma where any reasonable person would put a comma, it's the Coffeys and belboids of the world who should need a name for their decision, "the wrongun's absence" or something similar.

 

[belboid]

Leaving aside your bizarre assertion that including a list is an indicator of a poorly constructed sentence

Not my claim. Use a list by all means, just don’t use an OC in it. It’s ugly, unnecessary and wrong.

 

[LDC]

I’ll give myself the luxury of some massive hypocrisy (i‘m a nurse with a terribly unhealthy lifestyle). So that out the way…

Our health secretary.

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I think that type of criticism is both dodgy, as you say yourself, but also completely misses the point. It's not helpful at best and damaging at worst tbh.

 

[Raheem]

I think that type of criticism is both dodgy, as you say yourself, but also completely misses the point. It's not helpful at best and damaging at worst tbh.

I know what you mean, and I basically agree.

But I think there's an issue with Coffey giving off an an impression of active disdain for anything to do with moderation or "healthy living", at the same time as being in charge of English health services. She potentially has a credibility problem, which actually might influence her decision-making.

 

[Pickman's model]

I know what you mean, and I basically agree.

But I think there's an issue with Coffey giving off an an impression of active disdain for anything to do with moderation or "healthy living", at the same time as being in charge of English health services. She potentially has a credibility problem, which actually might influence her decision-making.

there's no potentially about it

 

[LDC]

I know what you mean, and I basically agree.

But I think there's an issue with Coffey giving off an an impression of active disdain for anything to do with moderation or "healthy living", at the same time as being in charge of English health services. She potentially has a credibility problem, which actually might influence her decision-making.

Nah. Her decisions are shit cos of her ideology, nothing to do with whether she drinks vodka and smokes cigars or sips on organic quinoa smoothies for breakfast.

 

[Raheem]

Nah. Her decisions are shit cos of her ideology, nothing to do with whether she drinks vodka and smokes cigars or sips on organic quinoa smoothies for breakfast.

Say she needs to make a decision about authorising or not authorising an expensive new treatment for obesity. I think it's likely that the negative press and social media she might get will be on her mind as she makes the decision.

 

[hitmouse]

Not my claim. Use a list by all means, just don’t use an OC in it. It’s ugly, unnecessary and wrong.

ok i see your point youve convinced me i now think that its extremely good helpful, and cool to leave out perfectly sensible pieces of punctuation it actually makes sentences much easier to read

 

[ash]

I love a Michael Rosen

 

[belboid]

ok i see your point youve convinced me i now think that its extremely good helpful, and cool to leave out perfectly sensible pieces of punctuation it actually makes sentences much easier to read

But it isn’t sensible. No one would write ‘Coffey is thick, and reactionary’ so why would you write ‘Coffey is thick, reactionary, and nefandous’?

 

[hitmouse]

But it isn’t sensible. No one would write ‘Coffey is thick, and reactionary’ so why would you write ‘Coffey is thick, reactionary, and nefandous’?

I would use a comma to separate the first item in a list, the second item in a list, the third item in a list, the fourth item in a list, the fifth item in a list, and the sixth, so why would I not use it for the seventh?

 

[belboid]

I would use a comma to separate the first item in a list, the second item in a list, the third item in a list, the fourth item in a list, the fifth item in a list, and the sixth, so why would I not use it for the seventh?

Because there is an ‘and’ there which serves the same function. So it’s superfluous.

And can create confusion when it gets to sub-clauses. I’d post an example but it’s Friday night and even I’m not that sad.

 

[existentialist]

Not my claim. Use a list by all means, just don’t use an OC in it. It’s ugly, unnecessary and wrong.

Just out of curiosity, suppose you were at a party at which Liz Truss and someone called Therese Covfefe were the strippers, and Paul Daniels and Derren Brown were the magicians. How would you describe who was there?

I'd do it thus:: "I was at a party with strippers, Therese Covfefe and Liz Truss, and two magicians, Paul Daniels and Derren Brown."

Because, to me, the Oxford comma, if it's the default option, delineates each entry in the list equally, with the "and" serving as an indicator that the last item in the list is coming up. Which means that I can use "and" without a comma to keep pairs (shall we say, a "sub-list") together, without confusion.

You can pry my Oxford comma from my cold, dead hands.

 

[existentialist]

But it isn’t sensible. No one would write ‘Coffey is thick, and reactionary’ so why would you write ‘Coffey is thick, reactionary, and nefandous’?

Because two items in a list can reasonably be a special case. Beyond two, the list could be of infinite length. "Coffey is thick, reactionary, uncaring, merciless, hateful, unsympathetic, and full of her own shit."

I want each of those descriptors to stand in their own right. I don't want people to think that I connect her hatefulness with the quantity of her own shit she embodies.

 

[ouirdeaux]

Just out of curiosity, suppose you were at a party at which Liz Truss and someone called Therese Covfefe were the strippers, and Paul Daniels and Derren Brown were the magicians. How would you describe who was there?

FML.

No commas required.

 

[Raheem]

I quite like Derren Brown. There, I said it.

 

[ouirdeaux]

But like that Ayn Rand and God myth, most of these examples of why a particular form of punctuation is required are very farfetched. There will be a handful of examples where using or omitting the Oxford comma will significantly aid comprehension. The vast majority of the time, it doesn't matter, and comes down to personal preferences. We all have our fundamentally irrational likes and dislikes in language, as in everything else. But with language they're elevated to something approaching divine revelation. The point of punctuation is to help the reader understand what is meant, because written language lacks the intonation that spoken language provides. That's it. What your English teacher told you was sacred truth decades ago is neither here nor there.

Don't get me started on apostrophes. You don't need them. People have started to realise this, and while for the most part nonstandard usage is often pilloried as an example of lack of education, we could ditch virtually all of them now without any loss. Not that I'd say this in public.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Tbf I’d cope with an Oxford comma ban if my caseload was reduced/my service’s staffing level increased so I’d actually have have the time to write my ever growing pile of reports.

 

[two sheds]

Don't get me started on apostrophes. You don't need them. People have started to realise this, and while for the most part nonstandard usage is often pilloried as an example of lack of education, we could ditch virtually all of them now without any loss. Not that I'd say this in public.

 

[belboid]

I'd do it thus:: "I was at a party with strippers, Therese Covfefe and Liz Truss, and two magicians, Paul Daniels and Derren Brown."

Thank you for providing an example of sub-clauses, because that’s what they are. It is not an Oxford Comma.

 

[Raheem]

Thank you for providing an example of sub-clauses, because that’s what they are. It is not an Oxford Comma.

Think the point was about the Oxford comma absent after Covfefe.

 

[two sheds]

you could drop the comma after magicians, when the one before would be an Oxford Comma

 

[belboid]

Because two items in a list can reasonably be a special case. Beyond two, the list could be of infinite length. "Coffey is thick, reactionary, uncaring, merciless, hateful, unsympathetic, and full of her own shit."

I want each of those descriptors to stand in their own right. I don't want people to think that I connect her hatefulness with the quantity of her own shit she embodies.

Good thing you put unsympathetic between those two things then.

Tho even if you omitted it no one at all would think her unsympatheticness was inherently tied to her full of shitness. Nobody.

 

[belboid]

you could drop the comma after magicians, when the one before would be an Oxford Comma

No it wouldn’t, not if lt and tc were the strippers as laid down at the outset.

 

[two sheds]

I think you'd need a colon rather than a comma for that although it would be a strange sentence. And I'm tending to agree with you tbh it can normally be avoided by rewriting the sentence.

 

[existentialist]

Good thing you put unsympathetic between those two things then.

Tho even if you omitted it no one at all would think her unsympatheticness was inherently tied to her full of shitness. Nobody.

 

[belboid]

Another excellent example of a badly written sentence that should be rewritten.

Unless you want to emphasise the lack of clarity in which case the Oxford comma makes it far less amusing.

 

[mojo pixy]

Don't get me started on apostrophes. You don't need them. People have started to realise this, and while for the most part nonstandard usage is often pilloried as an example of lack of education, we could ditch virtually all of them now without any loss. Not that I'd say this in public.

What you mean you dont need them? They cant ever be needed? what if theyre used to represent a missing letter in a contraction wont it matter ill have to ask what about when the version without apostrophe is a whole other word itself cant ill wont why both erwithsp el linga ndpu nctu ationa tall)

 

[hitmouse]

What you mean you dont need them? They cant ever be needed? what if theyre used to represent a missing letter in a contraction wont it matter ill have to ask what about when the version without apostrophe is a whole other word itself cant ill wont why both erwithsp el linga ndpu nctu ationa tall)

Fwiw, the slogan Unison are using for their current HE pay campaign is "We're worth more". Which is not the worst slogan they've ever come up with, but when used in hashtag format it becomes the ambiguous #wereworthmore, which could well be, for instance, a part of the sentence #wewereworthmorebutnowwerenot. First belboid comes out as a Coffeyite and now ouirdeaux defending the Unison bureaucracy. And someone edited the emojis out of the thread title.