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There's no such thing as left and right anymore...

But how does your dividing of all political significance into simply pro and anti capitalist give you any ability to decide whether respectively: racism, anti-semitism, opposition to immigration are good or bad?

Each of them is pro-capitalist, because they blame the wrong causes for the problems they deplore, thus distracting attention away from the real cause and allowing it to continue its evil work unabated.

Imagine if, instead of "is s/he right- or left-wing," the first question we asked about politicians, journalists etc was: "is sh/e pro-or anti-capitalist?"

Political discourse would be a different and more interesting field.
 
Each of them is pro-capitalist, because they blame the wrong causes for the problems they deplore, thus distracting attention away from the real cause and allowing it to continue its evil work unabated.

I would tend to agree with that, but I really don't think it follows automatically from your reduction of everything to pro and anti capitalist.

If you expect people to discard their more complex model for your simplistic one, you actually need to explain coherently how it works, which you seem unwilling/unable to do.

The main problem I have with your position is that most people who assert the end of the left/right model are in fact very much pro capitalist. You may actually believe your own claims to be anti capitalist, but you look to me like one of capital's useful idiots.
 
Each of them is pro-capitalist, because they blame the wrong causes for the problems they deplore, thus distracting attention away from the real cause and allowing it to continue its evil work unabated.

Imagine if, instead of "is s/he right- or left-wing," the first question we asked about politicians, journalists etc was: "is sh/e pro-or anti-capitalist?"

Political discourse would be a different and more interesting field.

loads of people say they don't like capitalism tho.

even tories from time to time.

it would end up telling you nothing
 
If you expect people to discard their more complex model for your simplistic one, you actually need to explain coherently how it works, which you seem unwilling/unable to do.

On the contrary, I have loudly extolled its advantages on this and several other threads.

One major problem at present is that opposition to capitalism tout court is barely a conceivable economic or political position for many. Dividing political discourse into "pro-" or "anti-capitalist" would have the advantage of placing that position at the center of discussion.

It would also allow us to conceive of opposition to capitalism tout court as a central or mainstream position, instead of as an "extremist" position, to which it is condemned by the left/right metaphor.
 
loads of people say they don't like capitalism tho.

even tories from time to time.

it would end up telling you nothing

It would force people to declare their position on capitalism. Which is something public figures should be forced to do. But at present they are not forced to do it.
 
Oh look, you've edited your post after I responded to it.

When I first read this

The real arrogance behind this no such thing as left or right nonsense is not the idea itself but the one behind it - namely, the idea that the conditions that gave rise to the use of left and right are now gone, superceded, beaten. Arrant nonsense that could only come from those with an interest in pretending that this is the case or who don't/have never/no longer experience the existence of those conditions anymore. It's the same as Blair or Clegg asserting that the class war is over.

I though maybe it was a bit harsh, but now that you're come out with this

Political discourse would be a different and more interesting field.

I think it's totally justified. Obviously the most important thing about political discourse is not whether it helps us to make sense of and improve the world, but that it's a different and more interesting field for academics like you to pontificate on.
 
On the contrary, I have loudly extolled its advantages on this and several other threads...

And that's exactly the issue. The primary meaning of extol is to praise highly, exalt.

You can exalt and praise it as highly as you like, and indeed you have. What I'm suggesting you need to do is actually explain and justify it.
 
I think it's totally justified. Obviously the most important thing about political discourse is not whether it helps us to make sense of and improve the world, but that it's a different and more interesting field for academics like you to pontificate on.

Obviously I meant that it would be more different and more interesting because it would help us make sense of and improve the world.
 
You can exalt and praise it as highly as you like, and indeed you have. What I'm suggesting you need to do is actually explain and justify it.

Sorry but I've explained and justified why "pro-or anti-capitalist" is preferable to "left- or right-wing" many times now, as have several other posters.

What we're not hearing is any rationale for retaining "left" and "right."

Do you have one?
 
Sorry but I've explained and justified why "pro-or anti-capitalist" is preferable to "left- or right-wing" many times now, as have several other posters.

What we're not hearing is any rationale for retaining "left" and "right."

Do you have one?

You say you have, you may even think you have, but you haven't, not to my satisfaction or the satisfaction of many others.

And I don't think you can or will, TBH
 
You say you have, you may even think you have, but you haven't, not to my satisfaction or the satisfaction of many others.

And I don't think you can or will, TBH

You know I have, in posts 251 and 254 above.

I quote the relevant extracts again here. Do you have any defense to offer or not?

One major problem at present is that opposition to capitalism tout court is barely a conceivable economic or political position for many. Dividing political discourse into "pro-" or "anti-capitalist" would have the advantage of placing that position at the center of discussion.

It would also allow us to conceive of opposition to capitalism tout court as a central or mainstream position, instead of as an "extremist" position, to which it is condemned by the left/right metaphor.

Imagine if, instead of "is s/he right- or left-wing," the first question we asked about politicians, journalists etc was: "is sh/e pro-or anti-capitalist?"

Political discourse would be a different and more interesting field.
 
You know I have, in posts 251 and 254 above.

I quote the relevant extracts again here. Do you have any defense to offer or not?

Is that it? Really?

Sorry, if that's your idea of a satisfactory explaination and/or justification for anything, then there's no point in prolonging this any longer
 
Is that it?

No, there's plenty more as you know.

In fact I and several others have outlined a pretty convincing case for the obsolesence of the "Left/Right" metaphor. And that metaphor has received only the feeblest of defenses, as we see from your puny efforts above. I didn't expect this to be so easy frankly.
 
Left and Right are terms which are engrained into international politics. Like them or not, they're unavoidable and probably indestructible, until the next mega-large asteroid hits the earth.
 
Sorry but I've explained and justified why "pro-or anti-capitalist" is preferable to "left- or right-wing" many times now, as have several other posters.

What we're not hearing is any rationale for retaining "left" and "right."

Do you have one?

Right, I'm going to take this in good faith and treat your posts on this thread seriously. I suspect this will turn out to be a mistake but at least I'm trying.

The thing is Phil, when it's put under any kind of scrutiny it turns out that your pro- and anti- capitalist categorisations turn out to map almost exactly onto what I expect most on here would think of as left or right.

Your claim that people who are racist, etc cannot be anticapitalist is an example of this - it's perfectly possible to rightly hold capitalist social relations responsible for the problems we face and to believe white people are inherently superior to black people, that homosexuality is a crime against good which should be punishable by death and a whole host of other bigoted views. Obviously the fact that you don't want these people to be considered on the same side of the divide as you isn't a bad thing at all but it seems to me that, if we're defining politics solely in terms of pro- or anti- capitalist, their exclusion from the anti-capitalist group is purely arbitrary and their inclusion in the pro-capitalist group plain wrong.

Seems to me that you're just trying to make pro- and anti- capitalist fit what others would see as left and right, albeit maybe with a more exclusive definition of left (or anti-capitalist).

I don't think there's any value in this exercise to be honest and it strikes me that if you really wanted to replace them the terms pro- and anti- working class would be better - since you can credibly exclude racists etc since their views would divide and weaken the working class. In fact I'd probably have a fair bit of sympathy for that kind of argument.
 
Right, I'm going to take this in good faith and treat your posts on this thread seriously. I suspect this will turn out to be a mistake but at least I'm trying.

The thing is Phil, when it's put under any kind of scrutiny it turns out that your pro- and anti- capitalist categorisations turn out to map almost exactly onto what I expect most on here would think of as left or right.

Your claim that people who are racist, etc cannot be anticapitalist is an example of this - it's perfectly possible to rightly hold capitalist social relations responsible for the problems we face and to believe white people are inherently superior to black people, that homosexuality is a crime against good which should be punishable by death and a whole host of other bigoted views. Obviously the fact that you don't want these people to be considered on the same side of the divide as you isn't a bad thing at all but it seems to me that, if we're defining politics solely in terms of pro- or anti- capitalist, their exclusion from the anti-capitalist group is purely arbitrary and their inclusion in the pro-capitalist group plain wrong.

Seems to me that you're just trying to make pro- and anti- capitalist fit what others would see as left and right, albeit maybe with a more exclusive definition of left (or anti-capitalist).

I don't think there's any value in this exercise to be honest and it strikes me that if you really wanted to replace them the terms pro- and anti- working class would be better - since you can credibly exclude racists etc since their views would divide and weaken the working class. In fact I'd probably have a fair bit of sympathy for that kind of argument.

This deserves more thought than I can give it for the next few days. Will get back to you soon though.
 
Don't they just quote-mine?

Hands up anyone who's read Sun Tzu.



Ok, butchers, we see you.

Raises hand a quarter way up.

I have. I read von Clausewitz and wanted to see where he'd nicked his better ideas from.
E2A: Obviously, in translation!
 
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So in one post you've gone from claiming that

...I and several others have outlined a pretty convincing case for the obsolesence of the "Left/Right" metaphor...

to

This deserves more thought than I can give it for the next few days. Will get back to you soon though.

Not only have you not argued your case here, you apparently haven't even thought it through and now need to have a few days to come up with an answer to Spiney Norman.

In treating your posts on this thread seriously, he's being more generous than I'm prepared to be. You've just confirmed my suspicion that you're nothing more than capitalism's useful idiot.
 
So in one post you've gone from claiming that



to



Not only have you not argued your case here, you apparently haven't even thought it through and now need to have a few days to come up with an answer to Spiney Norman.

In treating your posts on this thread seriously, he's being more generous than I'm prepared to be. You've just confirmed my suspicion that you're nothing more than capitalism's useful idiot.
Is he useful?
 
I have. I read von Clausewitz and wanted to see where he'd nicked his better ideas from.

I'll have another go. It's dead useful if you need to make neutral conversation with a cop of Inspector rank or above. So far, I can report that they're all into it (properly, having read it)!

E2A: Obviously, in translation!

Obv :)[/quote]
 
What progressive social change do the Tories want and how do they differ from labour in how they seek to manage this change? Who/what are the interests favoured by this progressive change?

The Tories like all the mainstream political parties support economic growth which arguably is what underpins social progress and accept the economic costs of that growth on the lower social groups but deny the cultural costs which is reflected in their social policies, Labour deny the economic costs of economic growth and accept the cultural costs.

The interests favoured by progressive change if it is seen as a product of economic growth and development are mercantile interests.
 
The Tories like all the mainstream political parties support economic growth which arguably is what underpins social progress and accept the economic costs of that growth on the lower social groups but deny the cultural costs which is reflected in their social policies, Labour deny the economic costs of economic growth and accept the cultural costs.

The interests favoured by progressive change if it is seen as a product of economic growth and development are mercantile interests.

Ah I see - you're using your own personal definition of 'progressive' - one that bears no similarities whatsoever to any of the generally accepted definitions of that concept - and a bizarre yet simplistic understanding of modern politics. With that in mind your post makes perfect sense.
 
Each of them is pro-capitalist, because they blame the wrong causes for the problems they deplore, thus distracting attention away from the real cause and allowing it to continue its evil work unabated..

one can be very pro immigration and just as pro capitalist, not least because the free movement of labour, a commodity in capitalist thinking, is a neo liberal objective towards making more private profit .And the cheaper the commodity the greater the profit . Conversely one can be anti immigration for the obvious opposing view...

theres some big holes in your theory . And you seem to be arguing anti capitalist means nice now . Something you were arguing against earlier .
 
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