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The grand tory 'civil war' thread

On the referendum, let the people decide has been a method of subduing division within his party for a decade,successive leaderships painted themselves into a corner not least to stop UKIp corroding their membership. However, there was and is talk of a further treaty in which UK would be offered Associate membership...if that happens there is a constitutional imperative for a referendum, would have been pressure for other EUropean states to lance anti EU sentiment ahead of that referendum as a No would road block the treaty across the whole continent (sort of, Ireland and France secured very little change to previous treaties before being told to vote again)- Would if happened also be interesting, as we would by then clearly know how much of Cameron's "reforms" had been implemented.

On Cameron being finished, regardless of the result, I agree. Gone on 22nd July. They will want to get to the parliamentary recess before launching what could be a difficult leadership battle.

I accept that those are reasons why he felt having a referendum was a good idea/would get him and his party out of the difficulty of having to reach agreement themselves, but I still say that the decision to have a referendum at the time and in the way we're having it was basically his to make or not make.

To suggest, as killer b appears to be doing, that he didn't have a choice, seems to me to be totally incorrect, but also to Cameron off the hook for making a decision which looks (even if the vote still ends up being to remain) to have been a disaster from his point of view.
 
I think the point is this lovely war would have been happening earlier than this if he hadn't put it to the long grass (as it seemed) and thus kept the ranks quiet plus keep ukip quietish. But now its here and we can all get some small pleasure from it.
 
:confused: at that date. If he's going tp go that promptly, surely as soon as within the week starting Monday 27th June?? :hmm:
who do you suggest as interim (official replacement would take months to sort out, membership ballots and shit) to survive 3 weeks of potential no confidence vote?
 
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Because he is and was the Prime Minister and the leader of his party. There was no constitutional necessity, it was a choice based on his judgement of the political advantage to be gained by promising to do so.

If you're suggesting he didn't have a choice, which you appear to be doing here and have done before, I suggest you need to back that up.

(I'm not suggesting the decision was 100% his with no input from anyone else, BTW, but in the end it was his decision, and he will be held personally responsible for the consequences)
Jeremy corbyn is leader of the labour party, yet he isn't able to dictate policy either. Politics is a negotiation, and cameron is in a weak position, and has to give concessions to his party to maintain it. His government has a very small majority, his party is heavily split in parliament and the majority of the membership are against him. Do you imagine they would have stayed quiet, had he refused the referendum?

You have it the wrong way round. The tories aren't falling apart over Europe because of the referendum: The referendum is happening because the tories are falling apart over Europe.
 
who do you suggest as interim (official replacement would take months to sort out, membership ballots and shit) to survive 3 weeks of potential no confidence vote?


Their probem, not mine. I was just surprised at the date you mentioned (22 July), seemed a bit random.
 
David Cameron should play no part in negotiations after Brexit, Tory MP says
Telegraph said:
David Cameron should play no part in negotiations to leave the EU if the country votes for Brexit, a leading Tory MP has said.

David Davis, the former shadow home secretary, said the Prime Minister should remain in post if there is an Out vote but be barred from taking part in the talks.

Instead somebody who the Conservative Party and the country had “faith” in to take the UK out of the EU should be placed in charge of negotiations.

The comments will fuel speculation that Mr Cameron’s premiership would be severely diminished – or even ended – if the country votes to leave the EU on June 23.

So, he could stay on as PM but not lead/be involved any discussions?! I can't see that working out for long :D

(I had to use google cache for that - I didn't realise the Torygraph now had a free article limit/subscription model online).
 
Oooh, Google suggests there's a superinjunction!

Search for "Stephanie Hudson, " Whittingdale => Google web search UK court order confidential :: Notices :: Lumen
Eh?
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Almost impossible to keep this thread up-to-date now.
Is this peak 'blue on blue', or will it get even better?
 
Those are pretty much my thoughts, in fact I think it could get even uglier in the run-up to and just after the referendum. :)
 
In one corner, Tebbit having a pop at Crabb...

The Government is doing everything in its power to rig the EU Referendum
Telegraph said:
Spare us another couple of months of hair-raising panic attacks by Remainers like Stephen Crabb for whom the days when the British people used to make their own laws and elect their own governments where back in the dark ages, indeed before he had even started school.

Beware of the reckless fools who advocate Brexit, he warns us. Should we leave the EU he says, our unemployment rate would soar to match those in Greece and Spain. What is more, he quotes all those wise men of the grand economic forecasting who failed to see the last great financial crisis coming, but kept their jobs to get it wrong again.

Well, I offer him and all his Remain colleagues a warning given by Gladstone 125 years ago:

"The finance of the Country is intimately associated with the liberties of the Country. It is a powerful leverage by which English liberty has been gradually acquired ... It lies at the root of English liberty, and if the House of Commons can by any possibility lose the power of the grants of public money your very liberty will be worth very little in comparison ... That powerful leverage has been what is commonly known as the Power of the Purse, the control off the House of Commons over public expenditure, the root of English Liberty."

Gladstone ended with a final warning: "If these powers of the House of Commons come to be encroached upon, it will be by tacit and insidious methods, and therefore I say that attention should be called to this."

And during Mr Crabb's lifetime how those liberties have been encroached upon?

How many of those eminent persons and institutions now forecasting disaster should we dare to reclaim our right to govern ourselves were, not long ago, forecasting disaster unless we joined the eurozone?

But nothing restrains the audacity of the Remain faction of our deeply divided Government.

And in another corner, Redwood having a pop back at Osborne...

Even Brexit would not cut high migration admits Treasury
Indie said:
Brexit campaigners who argue the UK could get a better trade deal with Europe outside of the EU are “economically illiterate” and dishonest, the Chancellor has claimed.

Singling out London Mayor Boris Johnson for advocating a “Canada-style” deal with Europe, which a Treasury analysis will claim would cost every UK household £4,300 by 2030, George Osborne said it was “not credible” to think Britain could maintain all the benefits of EU membership with none of the obligations.

His intervention came ahead of the publication of the Treasury’s assessment of the economic implications of EU membership and the likely impact of Brexit.

The analysis is expected to say the UK economy would be six per cent smaller by 2030 under a Canada-style deal, and to predict that all alternative deals would also be bad for the country's finances, taking billions out of public spending.

The claims have been dismissed by Leave campaigners as politically motivated.

The Eurosceptic Conservative MP John Redwood said the Treasury’s document was “absurd”, criticised Government officials for having “degenerated” to the point of producing it, and suggested that those warning of the possible economic costs of Brexit were in a "conspiracy to get us to stay in the EU”.

However, speaking to BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Mr Osborne staunchly defended the Treasury’s analysis and launched his strongest attack yet on the arguments put forward by the Leave campaign.

He said he rejected “the idea that Britain can sign up to some kind of deal where we get all the benefits of EU membership but none of the obligations or costs.”
 
I am also enjoying the Tory Brexiters banging on about how unfair and politically motivated it all is. Seem to recall they were all quite happy with such tactics during the independence referendum.

(Saying that, the pictures of Cameron, Clegg and Kinnock manning the phones together at some referendum thing did make me wonder if Labour had learned anything at all :facepalm:)
 
Sue : Kinnock was there more or less off his own bat, I reckon. I doubt Corbyn had much to do with that -- more likely Alan Johnson?

Corbyn's own speech last week was pretty much the opposite of lining himself up with the Tories.
 
Sue : Kinnock was there more or less off his own bat, I reckon. I doubt Corbyn had much to do with that -- more likely Alan Johnson?

Corbyn's own speech last week was pretty much the opposite of lining himself up with the Tories.
Doesn’t really matter who set it up. It was all over the TV news/papers and that's what people will remember.
 
It sort of does matter when you said that 'Labour' have learnt nothing from Indyref though. Kinnock might not have, but .....

I was only saying that I thought Corbyn's speech was more important.

No time for more.
 
I am also enjoying the Tory Brexiters banging on about how unfair and politically motivated it all is. Seem to recall they were all quite happy with such tactics during the independence referendum.

(Saying that, the pictures of Cameron, Clegg and Kinnock manning the phones together at some referendum thing did make me wonder if Labour had learned anything at all :facepalm:)
'Project fear' vrs 'Project smear'.
What's not to like?
 
It sort of does matter when you said that 'Labour' have learnt nothing from Indyref though. Kinnock might not have, but .....

I was only saying that I thought Corbyn's speech was more important.

No time for more.
I reckon I keep up with the news and read the papers more than average. I can't remember what Corbyn said but I certainly remember the Cameron/Kinnock/Clegg thing.

I also remain to be convinced that Labour in Scotland have learned anything. Or anything important anyway.
 
Those are pretty much my thoughts, in fact I think it could get even uglier in the run-up to and just after the referendum. :)
Smithson agrees...
It’s in non-CON interests for the Tory battles to go on and on
A party at war is pretty sight if you are not a supporter. The way this first Monday of the official referendum campaign has gone isn’t doing the Tories any favours and it is going to go on and on.

It is an extraordinary spectacle. A Conservative Chancellor sets out projections of what BREXIT could cost and we see a huge effort from fellow Tories to both discredit the figures and the man itself.

Anyone who comes out with anything that’s vaguely supportive of REMAIN has to reckon on coming under a pile of aggressive abuse from LEAVE backers. Those wanting out are more than ready to play the ball as well as the man.

If the Scottish IndyRef on 2014 is anything to go by this will get louder and stronger the closer we get to the day.

I’m sure that Cameron and his team regard the next eight weeks of party in-fighting is a small price to pay to resolving an issue that has so divided the party since the summer of 1992. The worry must be that battles will l continue after the vote.

Cameron really needs a 10%+ victory.

Mike Smithson
 
Raises an interesting point, we haven't seen much 'nutpicking' of leave supporters like we have with Corbyn supporters and Cybernats, is that to come? You'd have to spend I don't know 5 seconds to find people on social media who support leave who are actively concerned about 'WHITE GENOCIDE'.
 
Raises an interesting point, we haven't seen much 'nutpicking' of leave supporters like we have with Corbyn supporters and Cybernats, is that to come? You'd have to spend I don't know 5 seconds to find people on social media who support leave who are actively concerned about 'WHITE GENOCIDE'.

But the whites are always genociding somewhere or other - it's their thing.
You'd be foolish not to be concerned. :eek:
 
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