The grand tory 'civil war' thread

[marty21]

Marty's the Daddy now!

Where's your tool ?

 

[MrSki]

Where's your tool ?

What fucking tool ?

 

[Artaxerxes]

Dan Poulter has said that he doesn't support doctors contracts and is Dave is failing the poorest in society.

 

[stethoscope]

Govt response to a recent petition on the Parliament site to 'hold a general election'. The first bit amused me - proper defensive

The accusations made about the Government and Prime Minister in this petition are wrong, and the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act means no Government can call an early general election any more anyway.

The Government and Prime Minister have never sought to mislead the public. Nonetheless, the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act, which came into force in 2011 under the Coalition Government, removed the power to set the general election date, and therefore to call an early general election, from the Government and gave a power to the House of Commons to call an early general election in certain circumstances.

An early general election can only be called under the Act if either a motion (as worded in section 2(2) of the Act) that there shall be an early parliamentary general election is passed by the House of Commons with at least two thirds in favour of the motion; or if a motion of no confidence (as worded in section 2(4) of the Act) is passed by the House of Commons and the House does not pass a motion of confidence (as worded in section 2(5) of the Act) in the Government or an alternative Government within 14 days. Aside from these triggers there is no way to replace the Government through an early General Election.

Cabinet Office

 

[brogdale]

Some amusing remainarian-blue on remainarian blue here...

David Cameron would be overthrown as prime minister within 30 seconds of a vote to leave the EU in the June referendum, Kenneth Clarke has said.
In a direct challenge to Cameron, who told MPs this week that he would remain in office to negotiate Britain’s exit in the event of a vote to leave the EU, the veteran pro-European said it would be “farcical” for him to continue.
The former chancellor told the Week in Westminster on BBC Radio 4: “The prime minister wouldn’t last 30 seconds if he lost the referendum and we’d be plunged into a Conservative leadership crisis which is never a very edifying sight.”

If Clarke thinks this sort of imagining might encourage people to the remainarian cause, he's very out of touch.

 

[two sheds]

as is thinking a Conservative leadership crisis not being an edifying sight

 

[brogdale]

as is thinking a Conservative leadership crisis not being an edifying sight

 

[stethoscope]

Boris Johnson urges crowd to interrupt live Channel 4 broadcast

Crick began delivering a piece to camera midway through Johnson’s speech, in which the Tory MP dismissed David Cameron and other supporters of Britain’s membership of the EU as “Gerald Ratners of modern politics” – who admit the EU is “crap” but insist there is no alternative.

 

[brogdale]

Boris Johnson urges crowd to interrupt live Channel 4 broadcast

Saw that live. Now seeing Johnson's wind up it looks a bit Trumpesque; borderline "I love the poorly educated".

 

[stethoscope]

Yeah it is really. I still lolled at him telling Crick to shut up though.

 

[J Ed]

Saw that live. Now seeing Johnson's wind up it looks a bit Trumpesque; borderline "I love the poorly educated".

Honestly it had occurred to me when he decided to back leave that Boris might go down this route, I think him adopting at least the trappings of a more populist right-wing politics would be very successful electorally. That's probably why the Tories are trying to stitch up the internal democracy bit of another leadership election.

 

[J Ed]

I didn't mean to write 'Boris'.

 

[stethoscope]

I didn't mean to write 'Boris'.

I do it too @self.

 

[andysays]

we’d be plunged into a Conservative leadership crisis which is never a very edifying sight

Clarke being a little disingenuous there - they're already in at least the beginning of a leadership crisis, and his statement is merely contributing to it

 

[two sheds]

Clarke being a little disingenuous there - they're already in at least the beginning of a leadership crisis, and his statement is merely contributing to it

Edifying isn't it

 

[Santino]

Best argument I've seen for a Remain vote:

Bernard Jenkin, the senior Tory backbencher who supports the leave campaign, warned the party would be in “grave danger” if the UK voted to remain in the EU. Jenkin said: “I think a lot of people will leave the Conservative party. I expect whatever emerges from the wreckage of Ukip will be more potent than before. I think these are very great dangers. And a remain vote paradoxically makes a Corbyn government somewhat more likely because the Conservative party will be in such an unhappy state.

“Certainly our voters will vote ‘leave’. The vast majority of our activists will vote ‘leave’. And under these circumstances, the Conservative party will be far more governable and leadable, and Ukip will go away, if we have a ‘leave’ vote.”

 

[andysays]

Best argument I've seen for a Remain vote:

Bernard Jenkin, the senior Tory backbencher who supports the leave campaign, warned the party would be in “grave danger” if the UK voted to remain in the EU

MRDA

 

[newbie]

MRDA

you think? do you recall anyone saying anything like that during the Scottish ref? Or any other time come to that. Clarke has said Dave is toast if the vote goes the other way. It all strikes me as somewhat unusual for senior politicians to make such clear statements of impending fratricide.

 

[frogwoman]

There was loads of doom mongering during the scottish ref.

 

[newbie]

There was loads of doom mongering during the scottish ref.

I don't think Clarkes warning of a leadership crisis is particularly unusual but were top end tories coming out and saying the Conservative Party itself was in grave danger if the vote went the wrong way? I don't recall any

 

[andysays]

you think? do you recall anyone saying anything like that during the Scottish ref? Or any other time come to that. Clarke has said Dave is toast if the vote goes the other way. It all strikes me as somewhat unusual for senior politicians to make such a clear statements of impending fratricide.

The main reason no one said that during the Scottish ref is because Scottish independence isn't an issue which divides the Conservative party. The EU clearly does, and has done for some time.

I'm (pleasantly) surprised by the apparent scale of the tory civil war, but not at all by the fact that it's a divisive issue or that various people, including both Jenkin and Clarke, are arguing dishonestly that others need to support their position on the EU "for the good of the party".

 

[frogwoman]

The tories were all united on scotland though. On Europe there is a huge eurosceptic wing of the tory party who are mad as a box of frogs

 

[frogwoman]

The main reason no one said that during the Scottish ref is because Scottish independence isn't an issue which divides the Conservative party. The EU clearly does, and has done for some time.

I'm (pleasantly) surprised by the apparent scale of the tory civil war, but not at all by the fact that it's a divisive issue or that various people, including both Jenkin and Clarke, are arguing dishonestly that others need to support their position on the EU "for the good of the party".

I'm not surprised by it at all

 

[frogwoman]

It's the one issue that has the potential to cause a split in the ranks, this is the issue that kept them squabbling for years and years from 1992 onwards. The pro business CBI Tax Evasion types vs a huge number of completely obsessive ideological loons.

 

[nino_savatte]

It's the one issue that has the potential to cause a split in the ranks, this is the issue that kept them squabbling for years and years from 1992 onwards. The pro business CBI Tax Evasion types vs a huge number of completely obsessive ideological loons.

Here's one of those obsessive ideological loons. He's as mad as a box of frogs too.

 

[andysays]

It's the one issue that has the potential to cause a split in the ranks, this is the issue that kept them squabbling for years and years from 1992 onwards. The pro business CBI Tax Evasion types vs a huge number of completely obsessive ideological loons.

It's not just about them being completely obsessive ideological loons (although there is some of that, obvs), it's also that the Conservative party is in some senses a coalition of different interests, different sectors of capitalism, and in some areas they have significantly different interests.

Mostly their shared interests are enough to keep them together, however grudgingly, but at the moment they are effectively forced to concentrate on their differences and, whatever the referendum result, they're doing themselves serious damage which will take time to repair.

Whatever the referendum result, I reckon Cameron is now finished. His decision to hold a referendum and subject the party to this now looks like a complete and utter misjudgement. Couldn't happen to a nicer chap...

 

[two sheds]

Johnson's criticised the referendum leaflet as 'insufficiently absorbant'.

 

[killer b]

Why do you think Cameron had any choice whether to hold this referendum Andy?

 

[andysays]

Why do you think Cameron had any choice whether to hold this referendum Andy?

Because he is and was the Prime Minister and the leader of his party. There was no constitutional necessity, it was a choice based on his judgement of the political advantage to be gained by promising to do so.

If you're suggesting he didn't have a choice, which you appear to be doing here and have done before, I suggest you need to back that up.

(I'm not suggesting the decision was 100% his with no input from anyone else, BTW, but in the end it was his decision, and he will be held personally responsible for the consequences)

 

[gosub]

It's not just about them being completely obsessive ideological loons (although there is some of that, obvs), it's also that the Conservative party is in some senses a coalition of different interests, different sectors of capitalism, and in some areas they have significantly different interests.

Mostly their shared interests are enough to keep them together, however grudgingly, but at the moment they are effectively forced to concentrate on their differences and, whatever the referendum result, they're doing themselves serious damage which will take time to repair.

Whatever the referendum result, I reckon Cameron is now finished. His decision to hold a referendum and subject the party to this now looks like a complete and utter misjudgement. Couldn't happen to a nicer chap...

Because he is and was the Prime Minister and the leader of his party. There was no constitutional necessity, it was a choice based on his judgement of the political advantage to be gained by promising to do so.

If you're suggesting he didn't have a choice, which you appear to be doing here and have done before, I suggest you need to back that up.

(I'm not suggesting the decision was 100% his with no input from anyone else, BTW, but in the end it was his decision, and he will be held personally responsible for the consequences)

On the referendum, let the people decide has been a method of subduing division within his party for a decade,successive leaderships painted themselves into a corner not least to stop UKIp corroding their membership. However, there was and is talk of a further treaty in which UK would be offered Associate membership...if that happens there is a constitutional imperative for a referendum, would have been pressure for other EUropean states to lance anti EU sentiment ahead of that referendum as a No would road block the treaty across the whole continent (sort of, Ireland and France secured very little change to previous treaties before being told to vote again)- Would if happened also be interesting, as we would by then clearly know how much of Cameron's "reforms" had been implemented.

On Cameron being finished, regardless of the result, I agree. Gone on 22nd July. They will want to get to the parliamentary recess before launching what could be a difficult leadership battle.