The children of Windrush

[SpookyFrank]

I was talking about immigration policy. Presumably then you think the two aren’t linked?

There's a link but it's disingenuous in the extreme to miss out the middle step, namely a bunch of people deliberately stirring up division. It is not true to state that mass EU migration was destined to lead to UKIP and thence to brexit, and in any case looking back at how things played out and then saying 'I knew this would happen' is not a particularly helpful form of analysis.

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's undeniable that european free movement was one of the wedge issues that made Brexit possible, whatever you feel about free movement per se.

Made possible is not the same as 'instigated'. Instigated implies deliberate action.

 

[killer b]

You seem to be creating some windmills to tilt at there.

 

[Slo-mo]

Not this time it seems.

Outrage as Britain’s Windrush immigrants are SNUBBED at this week’s Commonwealth summit | Daily Mail Online

I suppose it's too much to hope that this could prove to be a real turning point?

WOW they've gone with it front page as well!!

'Windrush scandal' and McPartlin apology

 

[SpookyFrank]

You seem to be creating some windmills to tilt at there.

Whilst you seem to be supporting Magnus' invocation of a good immigrant/bad immigrant dichotomy.

 

[killer b]

Where?

 

[killer b]

It's an important discussion, probably best you don't just come steaming in arguing against positions you've invented for other posters.

 

[Treacle Toes]

David Lammy's very good at suddenly being furious about stuff he didn't give a shit about last week, before it was in all the papers.

That's not strictly true though is it?

I'm no fan of Lammy's but he does have a history of taking an interest in immigration issues, the abomination that is Yarlswood etc.

His hansard record show as such for example:

Written questions and answers

If Diane Abbot had have made that speech some would equally use it as a stick to hit her with and accuse her of not caring before...which would also be bullshit.

Just because it isn't making the popular news doesn't mean people are not involved.

 

[bemused]

I've dug out my naturalisation papers because I'm paranoid.

What an awfully shitty way to treat these poor people.

 

[Athos]

That's not strictly true though is it?

I'm no fan of Lammy's but he does have a history of taking an interest in immigration issues, the abomination that is Yarlswood etc.

His hansard record show as such for example:

Written questions and answers

If Diane Abbot had have made that speech some would equally use it as a stick to hit her with and accuse her of not caring before...which would also be bullshit.

Just because it isn't making the popular news doesn't mean people are not involved.

David Lammy's principal area of interest is David Lammy. He served in the government that got this ball rolling, which is why he's a hypocrite (as is Diane 'send my kid to public school' Abbot, incidentally).

 

[killer b]

From the twitter thread I posted earlier, as it's not just 'these poor people' that need to be part of the discussion:

let’s be clear, most deported persons are not your Gran or some WW2 war vet. We can’t work this out with ‘good migrant’ myopia. Some have criminal records. Some worked illegally. Many overstayed. These are how exile is justified so we need to unsettle these discourses.

This is about dads of British kids who sold drugs b/c not allowed to work. Mums of kids taken into care. Or women who worked caring for our elderly without papers, to remit back to Jamaica, then caught by hostile environment.

This is 19 year old boys who moved to the UK aged 4 to join their mum and were criminalised as teens and are now living in Kingston garrison with an estranged auntie.

These are the bad migrants who look to the world like British citizens.

So yes. The booklet is bad. But it is part of policy which justifies the banishment of migrants that almost no one has been defending. And I include the Labour politicians making the most noise. Be brave, fight the hard fight, make a fuller case against this state violence.

 

[Athos]

David Lammy's principal area of interest is David Lammy. He served in the government that got this ball rolling, which is why he's a hypocrite (as is Diane 'send my kid to public school' Abbot, incidentally).

Eta: But let's not get side tracked - we do at least agree that what's happening now is shameful, and ought to be a focus for action.

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's an important discussion, probably best you don't just come steaming in arguing against positions you've invented for other posters.

I've not invented anything. Magnus clearly said we shouldn't get windrush generation immigrants 'muddled' with this other bunch of people who, despite also having come here 'legally' and in good faith, can apparently be blamed for the UK's current political woes.

Bloody immigrants, coming over here and forcing people to invent UKIP.

 

[teuchter]

I've not invented anything. Magnus clearly said we shouldn't get windrush generation immigrants 'muddled' with this other bunch of people who, despite also having come here 'legally' and in good faith, can apparently be blamed for the UK's current political woes.

Bloody immigrants, coming over here and forcing people to invent UKIP.

That's a very dishonest misrepresentation of what was said, isn't it? It was clearly the policy which was being blamed, not the people which the policy allowed to enter the UK.

 

[SpookyFrank]

That's a very dishonest misrepresentation of what was said, isn't it? It was clearly the policy which was being blamed, not the people which the policy allowed to enter the UK.

Put yourself in the position of an EU migrant who has built a life here and now has to listen to everyone and his mum, including people who call themselves progressives, describing the fact you were allowed to live that life as if it were a ghastly mistake. Then imagine being told not to take it personally.

 

[ddraig]

Two times i've been on flights from uk to Jamaica where deportees were on board. These were commercial virgin flights, and each person being deported was 'accompanied' by big blokes in uniform (i remember they were in uniform but now can't remember what) and they were physically restrained into their seats. I presumed they were people being deported after doing a certain amount of prison time or something but actually I have no clue, maybe its the same treatment if you can't produce the necessary paperwork about what infant school you went to.

did you register your complaint or speak up?

 

[bimble]

did you register your complaint or speak up?

No. I just sat there like everyone else.

 

[killer b]

Put yourself in the position of an EU migrant who has built a life here and now has to listen to everyone and his mum, including people who call themselves progressives, describing the fact you were allowed to live that life as if it were a ghastly mistake. Then imagine being told not to take it personally.

No-one is asking you not to take something personally. Just to argue with or against things people are actually posting.

 

[twentythreedom]

James O'Brien is doing a good show about this on LBC

 

[Slo-mo]

Put yourself in the position of an EU migrant who has built a life here and now has to listen to everyone and his mum, including people who call themselves progressives, describing the fact you were allowed to live that life as if it were a ghastly mistake. Then imagine being told not to take it personally.

Ok Spooky Frank. Your turn. What would you do? Simple yes/no question. Do you think everyone on planet earth, all 7 billion of us, should have the right to come to the UK, work, claim benefits, use the NHS etc etc.

If yes, how would we even begin to cope with even 1% of people taking up the offer?

And if no, where do we draw the line?

 

[killer b]

I don't think a general immigration debate is called for either. Start a new thread if you want to get into that.

 

[Slo-mo]

I don't think a general immigration debate is called for either. Start a new thread if you want to get into that.

How, in the kindest possible way, do you say "I wasn't talking to you"?

 

[teqniq]

Probably just a nasty coincidence, but I too wondered

 

[killer b]

How, in the kindest possible way, do you say "I wasn't talking to you"?

If you're wanting to have a private conversation, do it by PM. otherwise you can expect responses from anyone on the site.

 

[ddraig]

No. I just sat there like everyone else.

nice

 

[Slo-mo]

If you're wanting to have a private conversation, do it by PM. otherwise you can expect responses from anyone on the site.

Sure. But I was specifically directing a question at a specific poster. That is allowed , surely?

And anyway on the very first page of the thread you said the Windrush generation were
"the tip of the iceberg. We need to make sure the argument is widened out at all opportunity."

 

[Teaboy]

nice

Oh give over.

 

[ddraig]

Oh give over.

pardon?
you don't think speaking up is worth it or has worked in the past?

 

[Teaboy]

pardon?
you don't think speaking up is worth it or has worked in the past?

At the point of being sat on a plane surrounded by holiday makers, no. I don't think saying anything would serve any purpose apart from possibly getting yourself kicked off the plane.

 

[bimble]

ddraig i am a coward yes, you never know maybe a word from an upset tourist would have seen them take the restraints off and apologise.