The children of Windrush

[no-no]

?

I hate the term scab. I was asking if those who use it would apply it to immigrants.

it's possible to acknowledge that a strike breaker or immigrant working in an over supplied trade is detrimental to others without placing an ethical judgement upon them.

It's safe to assume both have families to feed etc...they can't be blamed for trying to find work.

it lacks solidarity I suppose but that's not a standard I would hold them to.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

or a sense of geography and a desire not to have to work miles from home or have your wages suppressed by others who are willing to work abroad. I see it as pragmatic rather than nationalist.

Just as anti gentrification proponents arent anti middle class they're just concerned with being able to continue living in the area their lives are invested in.

You're right there is no difference between the gentrification and immigration arguments. Both are valid Imo

Same kinds of arguments apply. Just as immigrants don't suppress wages, employers do, immigrants don't put rents up, landlords do. There is a problem in the UK and particularly London that urban regeneration turns into gentrification due to the patterns of property ownership. And the exploiters - ie the landlords/employers - often get a free pass, while those they are exploiting get the blame.

 

[Slo-mo]

Same kinds of arguments apply. Just as immigrants don't suppress wages, employers do, immigrants don't put rents up, landlords do. There is a problem in the UK and particularly London that urban regeneration turns into gentrification due to the patterns of property ownership. And the exploiters - ie the landlords/employers - often get a free pass, while those they are exploiting get the blame.

Well yes and no.Rents and wages are ultimately set by the market (or by minimum wage legislation) Of course there are 'good' employers and 'good' landlords who choose to pay more or charge less than the market rate, but those rates are still influenced by the market rate.

If the market rate for a shop assistant is £8 an hour, a 'good' employer might choose to pay £10 an hour. He might choose to take a little less profit in return for staff loyalty , and possibly feeling a little better about himself.

But if he tried to pay £16 he would probably find himself out of business because his labour costs would be double his competitors, and few businesses can operate like that in a competitive market. So the 'good' as well as the 'bad' employer are still ultimately ruled by the market.

 

[no-no]

Same kinds of arguments apply. Just as immigrants don't suppress wages, employers do, immigrants don't put rents up, landlords do. There is a problem in the UK and particularly London that urban regeneration turns into gentrification due to the patterns of property ownership. And the exploiters - ie the landlords/employers - often get a free pass, while those they are exploiting get the blame.

It's a bit of both, employers don't dictate the wage. As we've seen, when there's a worker shortfall they have to pay more, they don't have the choice to suppress wages anymore. The post brexit effect has been more beneficial to workers in those sectors them than any minimum wage policy.

The employers aren't getting a free pass at all, they're going to be forced to pay more for their workers.....which would hopefully approach a figure that can actually cover the bills.

 

[DotCommunist]

impressive backflips here.

it lacks solidarity I suppose but that's not a standard I would hold them to.

it's not a moral issue for me.

heh

I hate the term scab.

why is that? have you had it ringing in your ears in the past?

 

[Gramsci]

If you live in London, especially inner London, to an extent you do live in a different country. NOT, I would stress, a worse country, in some ways a better country, but a different one.

I don't really want to get too much into London vs rUK because it's somewhat off topic, and most of the issues are covered elsewhere, but it is a very different place to much of the rest of the country.

So why are you bringing it up?

Are you trying to say my views aren't valid?

 

[no-no]

impressive backflips here.

heh

why is that? have you had it ringing in your ears in the past?

No, it's not a moral issue for me. I don't think it's morally wrong to enforce a border policy.

I also don't think it's morally wrong for immigrants or strike breakers to work where they need to even if their actions are detrimental to others.

And no, i've never crossed a picket line. I wouldn't ever want to but I'm not so sanctimonious as to think my life couldn't end up in a situation where I might need to.

 

[DotCommunist]

but its a standard which you choose when to hold people to and when not to? thats a moral, ethical decision- regardless of how you phrase it or what you decide. So 'its not a moral decision for me' isn't true is it? It reads more like you wish to say 'this is the choice of logic and politics, not the heart' by using the word 'moral'. Thus elevating your arguments to a space of pure reason, and any holding of principle to be sanctimony. Its a pretty shit way to bridge the gap between this

Scabs? certainly lacking in working class solidarity.

and this

It's not a judgement upon them

 

[no-no]

but its a standard which you choose when to hold people to and when not to? thats a moral, ethical decision- regardless of how you phrase it or what you decide. So 'its not a moral decision for me' isn't true is it? It reads more like you wish to say 'this is the choice of logic and politics, not the heart' by using the word 'moral'. Thus elevating your arguments to a space of pure reason, and any holding of principle to be sanctimony. Its a pretty shit way to bridge the gap between this


and this

I don't see a lack of solidarity as necessarily being wrong. Im sure people here do though which is why i mentioned it. There is no gap to bridge for me.

I place no personal judgement on strike breakers or immigrants.

But their actions do collectively cause problems.

 

[Slo-mo]

So why are you bringing it up?

Are you trying to say my views aren't valid?

No, absolutely 100% not

I was just pointing out that London is very different to rUK, as I'm sure you know. So we obviously come from very different perspectives.

 

[Gramsci]

No, absolutely 100% not

I was just pointing out that London is very different to rUK, as I'm sure you know. So we obviously come from very different perspectives.

And what are the differences?

 

[Treacle Toes]

rUK?

 

[mauvais]

rUK?

Rest of UK.

 

[Slo-mo]

And what are the differences?

There's loads of stuff online about this. It would totally take the thread off topic .

 

[Slo-mo]

rUK?

Sorry, nerdy slang

Like Mauvis says, rest of the UK

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's a bit of both, employers don't dictate the wage. As we've seen, when there's a worker shortfall they have to pay more, they don't have the choice to suppress wages anymore. The post brexit effect has been more beneficial to workers in those sectors them than any minimum wage policy.

The employers aren't getting a free pass at all, they're going to be forced to pay more for their workers.....which would hopefully approach a figure that can actually cover the bills.

Can you give stats for this post-brexit effect? Those stats will figure in the rise in inflation that came just after Brexit as well, natch.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well yes and no.Rents and wages are ultimately set by the market (or by minimum wage legislation) Of course there are 'good' employers and 'good' landlords who choose to pay more or charge less than the market rate, but those rates are still influenced by the market rate.

'market rate'.

How is that determined? When you are talking about a limited, essential resource like housing, which is owned by some people and not others, 'the market' is an entirely rigged affair. There is nothing 'natural' or 'organic' about a market rate - it reflects the patterns of exploitation that the particular society has set up wrt access to limited, essential resources.

 

[Gramsci]

There's loads of stuff online about this. It would totally take the thread off topic .

You started this. Not me.

 

[Slo-mo]

You started this. Not me.

Oh FFS. What's your problem, my friend?

 

[Gramsci]

Oh FFS. What's your problem, my friend?

You make a comment directed at me and will not clarify it.

Im not making a problem. You are.

 

[extra dry]

this popped up on my news page.
Gran's heartbreak as she's banned from UK after living here for 59 years
pop up, it is from the mirror

 

[klang]

Of course there are 'good' employers and 'good' landlords who choose to pay more or charge less than the market rate

so the ones exploiting you a bit less within a totally rigged 'market' are the good'uns.

 

[Slo-mo]

According to BBC news some documents have been found at Kew may help. Even though the boarding cards have been destroyed it seems Kew have the pasenger lists.

 

[Slo-mo]

You make a comment directed at me and will not clarify it.

Im not making a problem. You are.

Edit: can't be arsed.

 

[crossthebreeze]

I don't see a lack of solidarity as necessarily being wrong. Im sure people here do though which is why i mentioned it. There is no gap to bridge for me.

I place no personal judgement on strike breakers or immigrants.

But their actions do collectively cause problems.

So you keep putting "strike breaker" and "immigrant" in the same sentence as if they are morally equivalent but that's ok because unlike most of the rest of us who would judge scabs for actively breaking solidarity you don't see anything wrong with scabbing?? That's a very strange argument.

 

[GarveyLives]

But what is your opinion? Posting up links is ok once in a while but you aren't engaging with the thread.

Sometimes ...

... a picture (or even a cartoon) paints a thousand words.​

 

[no-no]

Can you give stats for this post-brexit effect? Those stats will figure in the rise in inflation that came just after Brexit as well, natch.

News outlets of differing persuasions reporting the same story.

Subscribe to read
Hospitality industry wages rise over 10% thanks to Brexit
Shortage of EU workers is pushing up salaries
Shortage of factory workers starts to push up pay rates
UK employers raise pay as Brexit skills shortage bites - recruiters

 

[no-no]

So you keep putting "strike breaker" and "immigrant" in the same sentence as if they are morally equivalent but that's ok because unlike most of the rest of us who would judge scabs for actively breaking solidarity you don't see anything wrong with scabbing?? That's a very strange argument.

"you don't see anything wrong with scabbing??"

No, I just don't judge people and label them scabs for crossing a picket line because I have no idea what reasons they might have to do that.

I don't see much difference between scabbing and moving to another country to work in an already over supplied trade. I don't judge the immigrants personally though even though their actions collectively cause problems in exactly the same was that i don't blame drivers for polluting the air.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

News outlets of differing persuasions reporting the same story.

Subscribe to read
Hospitality industry wages rise over 10% thanks to Brexit
Shortage of EU workers is pushing up salaries
Shortage of factory workers starts to push up pay rates
UK employers raise pay as Brexit skills shortage bites - recruiters

Not saying this won't happen as an effect of Brexit, but that is very flimsy evidence that it is happening now, especially as it shows wages still rising below inflation, and the rates of wage increases only being remarkable in the context of the last 2-3 years: plenty of times pre-Brexit when wages were rising more quickly. The special austerity-based conditions in the immediate run-up to Brexit were cutting wages across the board. Where wages are on average rising below inflation, which was the case in 2017, that means that wages are falling. So in the first year after the Brexit vote, wages fell.

 

[agricola]

Not been watching the BBC all day, but at the moment they are reporting that thousands of passenger lists have been found at the National Archives. I can only hope these are "new" documents and not the pre-1960 passenger lists, otherwise their definition of "found" is something that needs to change.