Treacle Toes
Time
The article quotes him and there's video so you can make your own mind up about that surely?
But yeah, you focus on that and not the nasty use of 'windrush child' as an insult against Abbott.
The children of Windrush
- Thread starter Tropi
- Start date
The article quotes him and there's video so you can make your own mind up about that surely?
But yeah, you focus on that and not the nasty use of 'windrush child' as an insult against Abbott.
Erm it's Wadsworth who's being referred to as a Windrush child (by himself and Swawkbox) not Abbott.The article quotes him and there's video so you can make your own mind up about that surely?
But yeah, you focus on that and not the nasty use of 'windrush child' as an insult against Abbott.
Treacle Toes
Time
Treacle Toes
Time
Fair enough. I'm not giving stuff my full attention either as a I am at work.
no-no
Small robot you know
Union reps should be targeting immigrants really, maybe they do. I suspect many of them aren't interested in taking action, they've come to work not strike. Union membership is lower amongst immigrants particularly eastern europeans.
It defies logic though because they're also exploited more and would probably benefit most from a union.
This raises the question of immigrants who might refuse to unionise, who are happy with current pay and working conditions. Scabs? certainly lacking in working class solidarity.
I just don't know where to go with this. I feel my family are being displaced, discounted, unwanted...and astonishingly, it is nothing whatsoever to do with immigrants or refugees and everything to do with global capitalism. Yes, there has been a massive influx of outsiders in my town, pushing rents into the stratosphere, jamming up infrastructure, swallowing resources...but these people are a privileged subsection, a bit like finance or media - Silicon fen is under the cosh of an enormous wave of transient tech-workers, employed at high wages but moving continually (and investing nothing in the community). Councils are bending over to accommodate them (fucking get their own dedicated rail station!)...along with the usual student accommodation scams.
The agricultural heartlands of East Anglia have always employed cheap labour - ranging from Irish, Italians, prisoners of war, South Africans, Borstal boys, Eastern Europeans, travellers...nothing much has changed here (same shitty living standards, gangmasters, modern slavery and illegal employment...but it is the twin plagues of property investment and an unbalanced and deeply unfair labour market which is finally breaking neighbourhoods and families apart.
So yeah, it is the structures of capitalism which needs policing - not borders.
I often feel very uncomfortable when confronted with the classic liberal argument which denies people any special rights just because of where they live...but I admit, I feel bloody resentful...but more of the situation which casually rewards some while punishing others and consolidates wealth and power regardless of consequence.
The agricultural heartlands of East Anglia have always employed cheap labour - ranging from Irish, Italians, prisoners of war, South Africans, Borstal boys, Eastern Europeans, travellers...nothing much has changed here (same shitty living standards, gangmasters, modern slavery and illegal employment...but it is the twin plagues of property investment and an unbalanced and deeply unfair labour market which is finally breaking neighbourhoods and families apart.
So yeah, it is the structures of capitalism which needs policing - not borders.
I often feel very uncomfortable when confronted with the classic liberal argument which denies people any special rights just because of where they live...but I admit, I feel bloody resentful...but more of the situation which casually rewards some while punishing others and consolidates wealth and power regardless of consequence.
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I'm so glad you've said that, I'm not sure I would have dared to.
I too am curious why. Perhaps they feel if they join a union and seek solidarity with their British colleagues, they won't be seen as 'hard working immigrants'?
Treacle Toes
Time
My first thoughts would have been to wonder if it was to do with them seeing their time here as temporary or if there is a culture of unionism in their home countries?Why would your first thought be so negative?
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I don't know if there is a culture of union membership in Eastern Europe or not, I am curious.
I do know of course that the Polish union Solidarity played a big role in overthrowing Communism, but that was 30 years ago now. And of course Poland is only one Eastern European country.
And before anyone cries 'off topic', no-no started it
bimble
floofy
Totally just anecdotal but my dad was an immigant from eastern europe (came here from czech in 68 and was given indefinite leave to remain really quickly). Having grown up in a shitty corrupt version of what he was told was "communism" he was always very pro 'free enterprise' & anti-union, resented having to be in the musicians union even to work. . Maybe he thought unionism was something like what he'd escaped from. Or maybe he's just an old man and not worth extrapolating anything from.
Treacle Toes
Time
Seems union density is low. Click the country name on the right for stats...maybe a bit old but...
Trade Unions / Poland / Countries / National Industrial Relations / Home - WORKER PARTICIPATION.eu
You sidestepped my question though..why would you imagine there would be no solidarity because they want to maintain the 'hard working immigrant' label? It seems like the most negative thing you could have imagined as being the reason.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Didn't take me long to get far enough into that article to see it was junk journalism. If you've not got time to check something properly best just not to post it.
Treacle Toes
Time
crossthebreeze
Well-Known Member
There's so many variables around union membership stats - public sector workers more likely to be TU members than private sector, casualised and part-time workers less likely to be union members than full-time workers, levels of union membership differ greatly between industries and occupation type, and there's a strange intersection between gender and occupation type - so female process, plant and machine operators much less likely to be unionised than men in similar occupations, but female professionals are more likely to be unionised than men with similar occupations (and professionals are the most unionised occupational sector). I would suspect that stats around union membership amongst migrant workers can often be explained by the other variables.
no-no
Small robot you know
I can see that, unionisation tends to be a cultural thing within each industry. I've never come across any union representation within IT for example although for other parts of the communications industry it's more prevalent. I've never worked for a large corporation mind you, I have no idea if the guys working the nightshift at the data centres are unionised.
It might be explained by immigrants mostly working in trades with low union membership. Still, if immigrant surplus labour has been supressing local wages (and it seems it has been looking at the reports of wage rises across multiple industries due to a post brexit worker shortage), it still raises questions about pan european solidarity doesn't it?
How right on is it to move to an area with a surplus of trade X to work? I don't think someone doing that has anything to feel guilty about but the locals also shouldn't feel bad about voting for border controls in order to protect local wages esp when we know that employers are exploiting many of these workers.
Found this earlier - https://wiserd.ac.uk/sites/default/files/documents/TU_ResearchNote3.pdf
"Levels of trade union coverage derived for migrant employees from A8 countries (16%) and A2 countries (13%) are estimated to be less than half that estimated for UK born employees (32%)"
Something has to give, immigrants need to be unionised (unlikely) or we impose border controls (looking more likely), the former would have been preferable, prob too late for that now.
I sidestepped it because I don't really have an answer as such. Rightly or wrongly less unionised employees are going to be more appealing to employers?
no-no
Small robot you know
The fact outright racists might find this info convenient should not be a reason not to mention it.
I think you might be right and they're generally happy earning sterling and probably don't want to rock the boat. That doesn't explain why the people who are being blatantly exploited, under paid, passports held, all that sort of shit. why do they put up with it?
I guess it's still better then the alternative back home.
You'd think eastern europe has a culture of unionisation, maybe not.
Just came across this too which must play a part :
https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/extras/migrantchallenges.pdf
"Nearly one third of our respondents had found accommodation facilitated by their employer."
I have no idea how that works, if you're paid less in cash as some of your wage is rent...it could certainly mean you work for less than a local. But more importantly, how likely are you to unionise if it's your home on the line too?
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no-no
Small robot you know
It's not neccesarily negative, just a symptom of people not wanting to lose their jobs. I think it's understandable and it does make them attractive employees.
An awful case. It looks like this guy came in 1972, just after the rules changed. We clearly need some sort of amnesty *as well as * the official apology to cover cases like this one.
Treacle Toes
Time
You don't see people being too scared of losing work or being in the bosses bad books to join a union as a negative thing?
That surely is the worst possible reason not to join a union isn't it?
It suggests a culture of fear and intimdationi in the workplace.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
You don't see people being too scared of losing work or being in the bosses bad books to join a union as a negative thing?
That surely is the worst possible reason not to join a union isn't it?
It suggests a culture of fear and intimidation in the workplace.
symptom m8. As in understandable, not a good thing. Could be where you come from the unions are even crapper than ours in the private sector, government lapdogs/bosses friends. Could be where you are from unionising gets some extremely unwelcome attention/reputation/blacklisting. Could be you just want to keep your head down cos you are a guest worker and you know damn well how precarious these things can be. I certainly don't see Notbonoever saying thats a good thing
Treacle Toes
Time
I know all of that Dotty, but it is a bad thing that people feel those ways about unionism isn't it? Scared 'Lone' workers are vulnerable, easy targets, unionised workplaces/collectives have power.
Also, it's no no, not nobonoever.
no-no
Small robot you know
You don't see people being too scared of losing work or being in the bosses bad books to join a union as a negative thing?
That surely is the worst possible reason not to join a union isn't it?
It suggests a culture of fear and intimdationi in the workplace.
It's def not a good thing, I thought you meant a negative judgement upon the workers who don't unionise.
Treacle Toes
Time
Well I did but not that I am making that judgement. I just found it odd that that was the only reason slo-mo could think of as to why people weren't joining...it felt like he could have been being more generous tbh.
Treacle Toes
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Another awful case.
He also makes a bloody good point about the destroyed documentation. Why wasn't it digitalised?
We have a million miles of microfiche on just abut everything going back forever...mass scanning and archiving of documents isn't anything new either. FFS.
He also makes a bloody good point about the destroyed documentation. Why wasn't it digitalised?
We have a million miles of microfiche on just abut everything going back forever...mass scanning and archiving of documents isn't anything new either. FFS.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
for sure, its all about dividing the workforce isn't it, shaving where they can. In agency based warehouse/light industry stuff round here there was no talk of union ever, comments from a few old boys at factories I did brief stints in. Even those were along the lines of 'when we used to have a union' etc.
But I don't think migrant workers union membership is a measuring stick to judge their potential for solidarity (nor do you obvs, i think its no-no and slomo n this one). I think thats a very clinical and crude way to separate things given the reasons we know for this and the decline of strong unions in general among people born here with the magic NI number assigned. Nor indeed should we be actually measuring people up for solidarity. Thats not how it works. I don't share water with a thirsty person because I expect something, right.
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