The children of Windrush

[Slo-mo]

ffs. You appear to be blaming others for your use of the term 'illegals'. Sort yourself out.

Look, I can't make it any clearer. The point about the term ''Ilegals" is a fair one and I'll use another term in future.

 

[Slo-mo]

No. Immigration officials who have reasonable grounds to believe someone doesn't have the right to be here can ask for their papers. If they don't have them, a legal process ensues.

And how do you get those ''reasonable grounds", if not from public information.

The police rely heavily on public information. Yes, sometimes they spot a crime whilst on routine patrol, but how do you spot someone who doesn't have the right to be in the UK?

 

[trabuquera]

You ask to see their passport?

 

[Slo-mo]

You ask to see their passport?

Which not everyone has! And almost no one carries around with them. Thats why I think we made a mistake in rejecting ID cards.

 

[trabuquera]

My point is, if you think someone needs investigating, then the police / the state / the immigration service already had the necessary powers before these hostile environment / duty to report measures were brought in. I don't feel that pre-emptive, universal, pre-checking the immigration status of absolutely everyone is a duty which devolves to every single possible landlord, employer, or NHS employee. Nor do I feel it's worth the resources used up to be hunting out every possible person in the UK without their papers 100% up to date. Do you not see the difference between these two approaches?

 

[danny la rouge]

Which not everyone has! And almost no one carries around with them. Thats why I think we made a mistake in rejecting ID cards.

Which, if you want them to be carried at all times, should be compulsory, right?

Have a look back through the list of things you're supporting: employers, landlords and others enforcing state laws on citizenship; members of the public informing on people; carrying of compulsory ID documents...

I've got some documentaries I can recommend you watch.

 

[andysays]

Which, if you want them to be carried at all times, should be compulsory, right?

Have a look back through the list of things you're supporting: employers, landlords and others enforcing state laws on citizenship; members of the public informing on people; carrying of compulsory ID documents...

I've got some documentaries I can recommend you watch.

I have a growing suspicion he's watched them already, repeatedly...

 

[Slo-mo]

Which, if you want them to be carried at all times, should be compulsory, right?

Compulsory to have, yes, not to carry. I personally carry my driving licence all the time, but it would be fucking ridculous to make it law.

I've got some documentaries I can recommend you watch.

I've got a fairly blank weekend ahead, and the weather is forecast to break so go ahead. Seriously, I'd be interested.

 

[danny la rouge]

Compulsory to have, yes, not to carry.

So, "but who carries their ID card with them?" right?

Documentaries:

The Nazis: A Warning from History.
-Looks at how the German people allowed the rise of Hitler.

The Sorrow and the Pity.
- Looks at collaboration under Vichy.

 

[not-bono-ever]

And how do you get those ''reasonable grounds", if not from public information.

The police rely heavily on public information. Yes, sometimes they spot a crime whilst on routine patrol, but how do you spot someone who doesn't have the right to be in the UK?

They should be made to wear some kind of badge or emblem to signify their status. if you have nothing to hide, then this should not be a problem

/

 

[Slo-mo]

So, "but who carries their ID card with them?" right?

David Cameron was opposed to ID cards, so he said, on the grounds he didn't want the police going round demanding "verr are your papers?" ( And his German accent was *bad*)


What in fact has happened here is that people have been demanded to produce papers that were never bloomin issued!!

Documentaries:

The Nazis: A Warning from History.
-Looks at how the German people allowed the rise of Hitler.

The Sorrow and the Pity.
- Looks at collaboration under Vichy.

I've seen a warning from history' but I'll try and find " the sorrow and the pity", I've not heard of that one.

 

[Slo-mo]

They should be made to wear some kind of badge or emblem to signify their status. if you have nothing to hide, then this should not be a problem

/

If you disagree with someone, be sure to compare them with the Nazis. It's a novel, underused technique.

 

[killer b]

What in fact has happened here is that people have been demanded to produce papers that were never bloomin issued!!

What do you think they would have had to do to obtain their ID card?

 

[not-bono-ever]

I just have.

 

[killer b]

slo-mo isn't a nazi, but he is a dull racist who's already been drummed off of urban more times than I can count.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

slo-mo isn't a nazi, but he is a dull racist who's already been drummed off of urban more times than I can count.

Who did he used to be?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Back on topic then?

Winston Jones was admitted to hospital with a brain aneurysm in 2014, which he attributes to the stress he was under as he tried to sort out his passport problems.

The 62-year-old spent five months in hospital, where staff told the former British Rail worker that he might need to pay for his treatment, even though he had paid UK taxes for more than 40 years.

“They showed me a bill for the brain operation. I think it was £5,000,” he said.

Upon discharge, he had nowhere to go because he had lost his home as a result of official doubts about his right to be in the UK. Hospital staff had been unable to find him a bed in a homeless shelter; having been classed as an “illegal immigrant” he was ineligible for a bed in a state-funded hostel. Despite his precarious health and lack of accommodation, he was allowed to leave the hospital and began sleeping rough. He had no warm clothes and few belongings because when was he evicted all his things had been thrown away.

“I wasn’t at all well. It was January or February; I was freezing that night. It was so cold I thought I was going to die,” he said.

After a night on the streets, he queued at the local housing department to try to get emergency housing. “I think they didn’t give two hoots, they just told me a lot of negative things. I ended up leaving and I had to go back sleeping on the streets. At the time I was trying to make myself strong, but when I think about it now, I think it is disgusting the way they treated me.”

'I thought I would die': Windrush man left homeless after brain surgery

 

[Slo-mo]

What do you think they would have had to do to obtain their ID card?

But the issue would have been resolved much earlier, and without people losing jobs and being dragged off to detention.

If it had been said in say 2008 that in 3 years time everyone will need an ID card, the issue would have come to light at an early stage, possibly before the boarding cards has been destroyed.

But as I say, hindsight is always 20-20

 

[Treacle Toes]

But the issue would have been resolved much earlier, and without people losing jobs and being dragged off to detention.

If it had been said in say 2008 that in 3 years time everyone will need an ID card, the issue would have come to light at an early stage, possibly before the boarding cards has been destroyed.

But as I say, hindsight is always 20-20

You seem to imagine that had these people applied for the ID card under the scheme you are suggesting would have solved everything that they would not have had any problems.

Are you sure?

When years of medical, NI and tax records have been ignored in some of these cases..you don't think the same would've happened if they had had to apply for a poxy ID card!

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why would the ID scheme have worked when all else failed?

They took him to Hackney council where he saw the manager, who told him: “We know you are legal. The problem is going to be how to prove it.”

He spent years trying to collect the evidence. He returned to Hackney and Stoke Newington college, where he had studied maths and science, but it had been converted into flats. He visited Hackney town hall and the libraries. “No papers had been stored anywhere,” he said.

“I’ve got some records; the Department for Work and Pensions have all my records – but for some reason that wasn’t enough,” he said. “It messed me up. You come over here legally, you work – then you find yourself living on the streets, getting help from nowhere.

“It was more than frightening. I worried they were going to send me to Jamaica, where I have no family. My children are here; my mother, who’s getting old, is here. I am very bitter about it. People need to understand what is going on. This government has ruined people’s lives.”

In January 2018 the Home Office finally confirmed Jones has indefinite leave to remain, after the charity Praxis intervened on his behalf. He has received no apology or compensation

 

[Slo-mo]

You seem to imagine that had these people applied for the ID card under the scheme you are suggesting would have solved everything that they would not have had any problems.

No I'm not imagining that at all. Not at all. Purely that i think the problems would have come to light earlier.

Am I sure? No I'm not, you can't be sure of owt when you are talking about a hypothetical past event.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Mis-read, my bad.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No I'm not imagining that at all. Not at all. Purely that i think the problems would have come to light earlier.

Am I sure? No I'm not, you can't be sure of owt when you are talking about a hypothetical past event.

Problem is that you start from a false premise. You talk of 'we', and you assume (consciously or not) that those in power are acting for 'our' collective benefit.

 

[andysays]

Who did he used to be?

And does he have the papers to prove his right to be here? Given his views posted on this thread he should definitely accept that anyone has the right to demand evidence of his ID at any time, on penalty of immediate expulsion if he fails to comply.

 

[Slo-mo]

Problem is that you start from a false premise. You talk of 'we', and you assume (consciously or not) that those in power are acting for 'our' collective benefit.

Well in theory they are supposed to, in a democracy.

Trouble is, this is a British democracy.

 

[klang]

illegals

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well in theory they are supposed to, in a democracy.

Trouble is, this is a British democracy.

So you agree that your reasoning is faulty?

 

[Slo-mo]

So you agree that your reasoning is faulty?

I certainly think that both politicians and professional civil servants are capable of taking some awful decisions. Decisions that are cruel or stupid or both.

 

[killer b]

Fucking hell.

Skwawkbox's cynical deployment of Windrush & Stephen Lawrence to defend Marc Wadsworth is a bit shit. He either has a case to answer or not.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I certainly think that both politicians and professional civil servants are capable of taking some awful decisions. Decisions that are cruel or stupid or both.

These decisions don't come out of nowhere. The Daily Mail, for instance, will shout from its front page about the foreigners abusing the NHS or benefits system (usually based on very flimsy evidence), and now it is wading in to shout about the disgusting treatment of the Windrush generation. It helped to create the latter with things like the former. Such things also appear to have helped to form the opinions of people like you.

You need to throw away a lot of what you think and start again.