The British People have voted for BREXIT

[SaskiaJayne]

The referendum was called for party political purposes rather than any belief it would benefit the economy. The Tories knew if they did not offer a referendum then they would lose votes to UKIP. I don’t think Cameron believed he would get an overall majority at the 2015 GE so he did not think there would be a referendum.

I think plenty would say that the country becoming a bit poorer in the medium term is a price worth paying for “taking back control” by which they mean no longer being subject to EU law. These people though will probably be older well pensioned home owners though. Some will be slightly bothered about property values dropping.

To me the best thing about brexit is that it makes the election of a Corbyn led Labour government more likely. Also a consideration is what would the future have been with a remain vote? The demands for more & more money from the EU would have increased year on year & UKIP would probably not be the busted flush it now is.

 

[Pickman's model]

As always, it works in the interests of a few.

Yeh. It is also thoroughly incompetent. You wouldn't trust anyone in the cabinet to make a cup of tea let alone a pot noodle or organise a piss-up in the proverbial.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

The enduring problem with brexit is that there can be no middle ground. One can only be for or against or unable to make one’s mind up as to which. I cannot see how any sort of compromise will satisfy anybody. The remain voters want a soft as possible brexit which in truth will be a poor substitute for remaining. The leave voters simply want to leave. After thinking we could just leave they are enraged at having to pay nth of £40bill to leave with no actual figure quoted & that we could still be paying into EU for decades.

It also looks likely that any free trade deal with EU might include having to pay for it ongoing so how can any deal satisfy a leave voter? The best deal for a remain voter will be to reverse brexit. This is truly a posioned chalice for any government. The Tories dealt it & they can damn well smell it. If it gets Corbyn elected though it may have been worth it imo.

 

[collectordave]

The referendum was called for party political purposes rather than any belief it would benefit the economy. The Tories knew if they did not offer a referendum then they would lose votes to UKIP. I don’t think Cameron believed he would get an overall majority at the 2015 GE so he did not think there would be a referendum.

I think plenty would say that the country becoming a bit poorer in the medium term is a price worth paying for “taking back control” by which they mean no longer being subject to EU law. These people though will probably be older well pensioned home owners though. Some will be slightly bothered about property values dropping.

To me the best thing about brexit is that it makes the election of a Corbyn led Labour government more likely. Also a consideration is what would the future have been with a remain vote? The demands for more & more money from the EU would have increased year on year & UKIP would probably not be the busted flush it now is.

IMO

Point 1. In English "Vote for me I am a good boy". Appeal for popularity.

Point 2. I am an older well pensioned home owner and the "british government taking back control" scares me, I saw how missmanaged the country was before we joined Europe. Plus I like the idea that if I feel that my rights are being abused and the British system will not acknowledge those rights I have somewhere to go.

Point 3. Before the referendum I have to agree. Watching the debates before I quite quickly realised that the Tory government was away with the fairies so I watched a few of the Europe debates in which Corbyn was involved and was impressed, he calmly destroyed petty claims about europe on both sides. I thought at the time that here is a man to vote for. Since then it seems that he wants to borrow the country out of trouble and with Britain allready with a 1.75 trillion pound national debt I do not see that as a way to go. If that could be changed and with the lack of an honest politician he will get my vote.

PS Not holding my breath for an honest politician.

 

[Pickman's model]

PS Not holding my breath for an honest politician.

hold it for a dishonest one then

 

[collectordave]

After thinking we could just leave they are enraged at having to pay nth of £40bill to leave with no actual figure quoted & that we could still be paying into EU for decades.

Now I thought the £40billion was really just a figure generated from what the british government had agreed to pay before BREXIT and that part of article 50 was to sit down with Europe and work out the actual figure. Basically to say we have agreed to pay such and such amount into Europe when we were a part of Europe but after leaving we should not be paying this into europe so lets talk. It is not what the British press seem to suggest a "Divorce Settlement" just Britain facing up to what it has promised.

I can see the European side that this must be settled before trade talks as if Britain refuses to pay what it has allready agreed then how can anyone trust what is agreed in trade talks?

What I do not understand is how this developed into an auction with the british saying we will only pay so much and Europe dissagreeing. Surely it is just some simple math, rather tedious but simple. e.g. Britain promised to pay £350 million etc or whatever but Europe would pay back £220 million in subsidies so after BREXIT no £350 million just £130 million till next budget and of course no subsidies of £220 million from europe either simple maths. Why don't they just sit down and get on with it?

 

[Pickman's model]

What I do not understand is how this developed into an auction with the british saying we will only pay so much and Europe dissagreeing.

it didn't develop into an auction

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I think the £40bill figure is just some sort of starting point that the leavers who thought we would be paying nothing have had to accept before the negotiations can move on. I don’t think the actual leave figure can be calculated now. It has to be worked out on an ongoing basis & is probably dependant on the trade deal arrived at. Norway for example pays for access to the single market.

 

[kabbes]

I am very much enjoying seeing BREXIT always written in caps lock. BREXIT. It just fits, like an angry man shouting it at his own reflection. BREXIT.

 

[Doppelgänger]

Norway for example pays for access to the single market.

And has very little influence. Which is why leaving makes no sense.

This little gem came up the other day:

UK 'could join Pacific free trade zone'

Liam Fox is actually advocating joining a free trade zone on the other side of the planet, where no doubt China will be the one's dictating terms. There just seems to be no game plan and for some reason few are really holding the government to account; those who do are branded enemy of the people.

 

[likesfish]

most of the people going on about why we haven't left and how trade deals are simple to sort out and EU law is easy to translate form EU to UK law.

don't appear to have any experience in trade deals or international law or ant lawyers.

all I know is law is complex and takes experts to get right try to do it quickly or on the cheap and it will bite you hard.
the quality we have on our side fills me full of confidence not

 

[ViolentPanda]

Waste man.

If more people didn't want to leave the EU they should have voted that way.

Also points for original thinking.

As anyone who actually bothered to find out what the referendum was about is aware, the referendum was advisory, to explore public opinion. It wasn't a referendum on leaving the EU, it was a referendum on how people feel about leaving the EU. The govt consistently misrepresents this because it's frightened shitless that a non-advisory referendum would swing t'other way.

I say this not as a remainer, but as a leaver.

 

[Ax^]

"Can we just fucking get on with it"

mostly to see the damage of it either way i'm still in Europe..

watching this happen whilst British politics is being more python that anything I've seen

 

[Poi E]

The head of the British beast is finding it's appendages somewhat wayward.

 

[Pickman's model]

And has very little influence. Which is why leaving makes no sense.

This little gem came up the other day:

UK 'could join Pacific free trade zone'

Liam Fox is actually advocating joining a free trade zone on the other side of the planet, where no doubt China will be the one's dictating terms. There just seems to be no game plan and for some reason few are really holding the government to account; those who do are branded enemy of the people.

if you read your link you'll find china's not in it



so please tell me, how will china be the ones dictating terms?

 

[Doppelgänger]

if you read your link you'll find china's not in it

View attachment 124901

so please tell me, how will china be the ones dictating terms?

Very true, but they have been in discussions in the past and indeed it is believed that they would eventually join the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I am sure in Liam Fox's recent visit the potential to join would have been at least mentioned.

 

[Pickman's model]

Very true, but they have been in discussions in the past and indeed it is believed that they would eventually join the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I am sure in Liam Fox's recent visit the potential to join would have been at least mentioned.

disussions in the past and potential for the future do not support the certainty you expressed above that 'no doubt china will be the one's dictating terms'

 

[SpookyFrank]

This little gem came up the other day:

UK 'could join Pacific free trade zone'

Liam Fox is actually advocating joining a free trade zone on the other side of the planet, where no doubt China will be the one's dictating terms. There just seems to be no game plan and for some reason few are really holding the government to account; those who do are branded enemy of the people.

One step closer to Oceania.

 

[Doppelgänger]

disussions in the past and potential for the future do not support the certainty you expressed above that 'no doubt china will be the one's dictating terms'

There have been numerous articles on the subject and any trade deal where China is involved will be very much skewed in their favour.

In Brexit trade deals with China and India, Britain won't come out top

 

[Pickman's model]

There have been numerous articles on the subject and any trade deal where China is involved will be very much skewed in their favour.

In Brexit trade deals with China and India, Britain won't come out top

yeh. there's been numerous articles on all sorts of windbaggery.

 

[ffsear]

I was listening to some talk about BREXIT yet again and started to wonder about some of the staements made. These included:-

The British People have voted for BREXIT.
Over half the British People voted for BREXIT.
The Majoroty of British people voted to leave Europe.

My first thoughts were that not All british people are elligable to vote. At the time of the referendum there were 46.4 people elligable to vote out of a population of 65.6 million. So only 70.1% of the British were even elligable to vote.

Of these elligable voters only 72.2% actually voted or 33.5 million.

Then out of those who voted only 51.9% voted for BREXIT or a total of 17.4 million.

So out of the British population only 25.5% voted for BREXIT.

All the above statements it would seem are complete lies or at best half truths based on statistics.

Now apply that logic to the 1975 referendum!

 

[collectordave]

Now who was it that said "Any Intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction"?

IMO the simple approach works here.

Simply put:-

1. A minority of the British people voted for brexit.

2. There are no discernable benefits of brexit for the British people

3. Britain has agreed to pay certain sums to Europe

4. Europe does pay money back to britain in the form of subsidies etc.


Points 1 and 2 have been dealt with here on other threads and this one.

So dealing with the money side.

Britain agreed to pay £350million a week to Europe. This was reduced by £80million by Magaret Thatcher. £220million is paid back to Britain in the form of subsidies to farmers and fishermen. With simple maths this leaves £50million. The tedious part is looking at all the other benefits from Europe such as how many British are employed by Europe, from MEPs to European institutions based in Britain. You also need to look at benefits to Europe from Britain. The only question is again why don't they sit down and sort it out?

Ok so now we can look at a hard brexit. I assume this means that after the date of Britains exit Britain will no longer pay any monies to Europe and by the same token Europe will not pay any monies to Britain. This means no fishermen or farmers subsidies no employment for any European institutions in Britain and so on. So if a hard brexit is planned then I would expect some guidance by now of how these subsidies etc are to be managed by the British government. Do farmers and fishermen simply lose their subsidies? The only report I have seen is one telling me that the Spanish will no longer be able to fish within the 12 mile limit, this was in a British paper, so taken with a pinch of salt, of course the other side of that report would be that fishermen restricted to the 12 mile limit no longer require subsidies.

Trade deals after brexit mentioned above. Of course where you read "UK could join the Pacific free trade zone" you can also read into it that "Europe could join the Pacific free trade zone", I wonder which would get the best deal. China is allready investing quite heavily in Europe and If I understood the Portuguese news recently Europe is allready talking to China about a trade deal. These, are of course, just wishes and hopes for the period after brexit not actual benefits.

Simply put the question is, Do you trust the British government? Seeing that the Government is elected based on it's popularity at the time of an election I feel that all parties will announce more spending on the NHS, as it is in the news at the moment, but will take the money from the farmers and fishermen. So for me I do not trust the government with the money released by brexit at all!

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

May announced a Red, White and Blue Brexit.

I want a Red and Black Brexit. What do I have to burn down to get that?

Tough titties, You'll get a black and blue brexit and like it!!

 

[jusali]

I can shut this down with one statement which the majority of my knuckle dragging compatriots love to use.
Snowflake

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I can shut this down with one statement which the majority of my knuckle dragging compatriots love to use.
Snowflake

Can you define who these knuckle dragging compatriots are? What are their cultural, social and poltical traits? Obviously voting leave is the most obvious signifier but what other things have you got in mind when you think of these knuckle draggers?

 

[collectordave]

Now I have the figures it seems to me that we could have some fun first guessing Polititions, journalists and forum posters by trying to guess what they will say about the BREXIT referendum result. Or just a list cataloging all statements used etc.To attempt this a few definitions are needed.

The "British People" referes to the population of Britain at the time of the referendum.

The "Voters" referes to all british that were elligible to vote.

If you use other terms please explain their meanings.

These can be split into three sections.

BREMAIN

BREXIT

Half Truth

I will start the ball rolling.

BREMAIN

74.5% of the British people did not vote for BREXIT

An overwhelming majority of the British People did not vote to leave Europe

37.8% of British voters did not vote and were shocked by the leave vote

The British government supports the minority that voted for BREXIT ignoring the will of the people.

BREXIT

51.9% of British people who were elligible to vote and actually did vote voted to leave Europe.

Half Truth

52% of voters voted to leave Europe
The British People have voted for BREXIT.
Over half the British People voted for BREXIT.
The Majoroty of British people voted to leave Europe.

Who can come up with the most fantastic sounding statement that appears to be based on fact?

 

[JimW]

...

Think you said in an earlier post you voted leave. How come given everything else you've posted here?

 

[collectordave]

Think you said in an earlier post you voted leave. How come given everything else you've posted here?

During the past year I have attempted to keep up with the news and to understand what is happening. It is the misquoting of the referendum statistics that started me wondering what else has been said that has missled me.

So all I have posted here is my attempt to understand my actions during the referendum.

Just a cursory examination of the referendum statistics shows just how commentators on the referendum are attempting to misslead me again. I am no longer under the impression that the British Government is "Carrying out the will of the people" but is bending the referendum statistics in an attempt to fool me into thinking it is the will of the majority, and not simply the governemnt "Carrying out the will of the government" irrespective of what the will of the people is. Understanding the reasons the government is in such a headlong rush to exit europe is for another day, as I do not like my initial thoughts.

As I progressed through the year I realised I have also been misled by the figures quoted by a certain politician as to the amount we pay into Europe and how, after leaving, this money could be diverted into the NHS. I have worked with the NHS quite closely at times and owe my life to the surgeons and nurses employed by the NHS.

I was told that we pay £350 million a week to Europe (seen on the side of a bus as well), the inference being that the NHS would be sorted with an extra £350 million each week. However just scratching the surface you find that britain receives £220 million back in subsidies to fishermen and farmers. Ergo for the NHS to recieve £350 million the fishermen and farmers would have to recieve nothing or taxes would have to rise dramatically. I really enjoy fish and chips and these depend on both fishermen and farmers so I do not wish to see their destruction.

So I was taken up in the heat of the moment during the referendum and for that I apologise, I should have looked at how leaving europe would affect britain and not relied on my personal feelings or opinions.

 

[JimW]

So I was taken up in the heat of the moment during the referendum and for that I apologise, I should have looked at how leaving europe would affect britain and not relied on my personal feelings or opinions.

No need to apologise to me, I voted leave and would do again due to my opinion of the whole EU project and its direction of travel; it wasn't an economic question to my mind.

 

[redsquirrel]

74.5% of the British people did not vote for BREXIT

An overwhelming majority of the British People did not vote to leave Europe

37.8% of British voters did not vote and were shocked by the leave vote

The British government supports the minority that voted for BREXIT ignoring the will of the people

First, nobody voted to leave, or remain in, Europe. People voted to leave/remain in the EU. Second, a slightly greater 'overwhelming majority' did not vote to Remain in the EU so what conclusions are you attempting to derive? Third, there's no evidence that 100% of those that didn't vote in the referendum were 'shocked by the leave vote'. Fourth, by your logic not leaving the EU would be supporting an even smaller minority which would also be 'ignoring the will of the people' so how is the 'will of the people' supposed to be followed?