The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion

[philosophical]

the issue of a border is surely down to the single market, rather than the eu, no? we could have left the eu and remained in the single market, therefore having no controlled borders, but we would have still left the eu. what defines being in the eu or not isn’t whether or not you have a controlled border with it.

Being in a single market would probably have resolved the border issue at a stroke, but my perception is that brexiters would see that outcome as rule takers not rule makers, and rejected it.
Hence the separation, between which there is usually something commonly known as a border.

 

[belboid]

Isn't it more complex than that?
For example is 'freedom' a viable concept, or is such a state better described as the absence of restrictions because as Rousseau points out.

bloody hell, that must half a dozen set of borders you've shifted those goalposts over

 

[brogdale]

My stance has been that in a practical sense the border is completely open.
My argument has been that it seems illogical that if the UK is supposed to have left then changes would not be manifest on the land border.
The shenanigans, as yet seemingly unresolved, regarding the 'border in the Irish Sea' point to the notion that once leaving is supposed to have happened some kind of border somewhere is established.
Recent developments have led to resistance to the notion of the Irish Sea Border (a confirmation that both the EU and the UK see 'a' border as a consequence that flows from leaving). The practical realities indicate that the 'leaving' has at the very least not fully happened, which is my point about that isn't what was voted for...a partial dogs dinner kind of leaving...the vote was simply (sic) to leave.
I don't know if you think leaving has happened in terms of all border issues being neatly sorted and agreed, but it doesn't look like that from my perspective.
It looks like a wide open bit of territory across which anything goes.
If the concept of leaving only applies to laws and paperwork and declarations and rules and such like...not practicalities, then maybe a clever lawyer can point to the paperwork and declare 'lo! The UK has left the EU', but that looks like an Emperor's New Clothes scenario, the UK has left the EU if you believe hard enough, but the practicalities are a different matter, just as you'll freeze your bollocks off in cold weather if you start to wear the same clothes as the Emperor.
Current affairs are the start of the Marching Season, and you may well find resentment about the sea border rearing its head during the time of those events.
You may well decry my references to a border as you have done above, but it is still a live issue.

I genuinely can't fathom what it is you don't get.

 

[philosophical]

I don’t get the notion some people hold that leave as voted for is now done and dusted.

 

[belboid]

I don’t think anyone thinks it is done and dusted, nor that it will be within the next five years.

That the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is no longer legally a member of the European Union, however….

 

[Spymaster]

I don’t get the notion some people hold that leave as voted for is now done and dusted.

Shut up.

 

[brogdale]

I don’t get the notion some people hold that leave as voted for is now done and dusted.

But it was you that posted the facsimile ballot paper, above, with the wording Leave the European Union; that happened at 23:00 GMT on 31 January 2020.

 

[Raheem]

Philosophical, it's a bit of an odd position for a remainer to be saying that what's happening doesn't really count as Brexit. I'm not stopping you, just making an observation.

Don't you recall before the referendum, there were people talking about how their could be different versions of Brexit, like the Norway model, the Canada model and so on? All that's happened is they picked the who-gives-a-toss-about-Northern-Ireland model.

 

[philosophical]

Looks more like an attempt at a turn a blind eye model.
I have said the practical reality of the vote to leave is not happening.
Especially as Northern Ireland is treated differently to the rest of the UK, which was certainly not on the ballot paper.

 

[philosophical]

But it was you that posted the facsimile ballot paper, above, with the wording Leave the European Union; that happened at 23:00 GMT on 31 January 2020.

The wording also included ‘should the United Kingdom’ didn’t it?
Whatever happened was not what was voted for due to what is called the Norther Ireland Protocol.
I don’t see how treating Northern Ireland differently was what was on the ballot paper we have both referenced.

 

[Raheem]

No, it wasn't on the ballot paper. Lots of things that weren't on the ballot paper have happened. But whether or not Brexit has happened is only really to do with what was on the ballot paper. Anything else is a bonus.

 

[Des Kinvig]

Being in a single market would probably have resolved the border issue at a stroke, but my perception is that brexiters would see that outcome as rule takers not rule makers, and rejected it.
Hence the separation, between which there is usually something commonly known as a border.

being in the single market would have meant an open border in ireland, the same as it is now. but out of the eu.

if two people were leaving a pub, could there be an argument that they didn’t actually leave, because they didn’t go to the same place after, or one of them climbed out the bog window and the other went out the door?

 

[brogdale]

The wording also included ‘should the United Kingdom’ didn’t it?
Whatever happened was not what was voted for due to what is called the Norther Ireland Protocol.
I don’t see how treating Northern Ireland differently was what was on the ballot paper we have both referenced.

NI cannot be and is not a member state of the EU supra-state; why are you wasting your time fretting that it is?

 

[philosophical]

Which brings us to the practicalities of the open land border in Ireland.

 

[Pickman's model]

The wording also included ‘should the United Kingdom’ didn’t it?
Whatever happened was not what was voted for due to what is called the Norther Ireland Protocol.
I don’t see how treating Northern Ireland differently was what was on the ballot paper we have both referenced.

The wording was as you say should the UK leave. So the result showed a larger number saying yes the UK should leave. That's all. There's nothing there about 'we will legislate to enshrine the result in law'.

 

[belboid]

Which brings us to the practicalities of the open land border in Ireland.

Brings us? It’s all you’ve talked of for three years. In which time your opinion hasn’t changed one iota and you’ve just said ‘but, but, but, the border!!’ Around 2,850 times.

 

[Pickman's model]

Which brings us to the practicalities of the open land border in Ireland.

You think those should have been on the ballot paper too?

 

[philosophical]

Brings us? It’s all you’ve talked of for three years. In which time your opinion hasn’t changed one iota and you’ve just said ‘but, but, but, the border!!’ Around 2,850 times.

Maybe not such a high number but essentially you're right.
The land border issue remains unresolved.
I have posted other stuff on other threads too.

 

[philosophical]

You think those should have been on the ballot paper too?

Yes.

 

[brogdale]

Which brings us to the practicalities of the open land border in Ireland.

In what way is it impractical?
The two signatories to the WA & TA, the UK state and EU supra-state, have reached agreement about the open border via the NI protocol. But then, you know that, don't you?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes.

But your point falls because your interpretation of the question is to say the least idiosyncratic and perverse, promoting the ballot paper to the central document in this matter above the previous six months of campaigning and all the documents issued by government and the various campaigns.

 

[TopCat]

NI cannot be and is not a member state of the EU supra-state; why are you wasting your time fretting that it is?

Who is the MEP for NI? I must have missed their election.

 

[philosophical]

In what way is it impractical?
The two signatories to the WA & TA, the UK state and EU supra-state, have reached agreement about the open border via the NI protocol. But then, you know that, don't you?

Yes I know that.
And it is proving to be an impractical load of nonsense.
And not what was voted for.

But your point falls because your interpretation of the question is to say the least idiosyncratic and perverse, promoting the ballot paper to the central document in this matter above the previous six months of campaigning and all the documents issued by government and the various campaigns.

If you mean the Brexit campaign can you remember references to the Irish land border in particular?

 

[Pickman's model]

If you mean the Brexit campaign can you remember references to the Irish land border in particular?

To refresh my memory I searched the Nexis database of newspapers and there were loads including in the ft. On phone atm but quite happy to crush you under the weight of articles later

 

[belboid]

And not what was voted for.

You have no idea why people voted the war they did in the referendum. But they then voted again and elected Tory cunts. Said cunts (eventually) agreed this plan and they got re-elected.

tough shit if you don’t like it or think it’s contradictory. If it’s taken you this long to work out that that’s life under late capitalism you’ve been a lucky motherfucker.

 

[philosophical]

To refresh my memory I searched the Nexis database of newspapers and there were loads including in the ft. On phone atm but quite happy to crush you under the weight of articles later

Go for it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Go for it.

Being as your entire corpus of posts is built on the sandy claim that no one ever ever thought of the border before 23.6.16 it will be a pleasure

 

[philosophical]

You have no idea why people voted the war they did in the referendum. But they then voted again and elected Tory cunts. Said cunts (eventually) agreed this plan and they got re-elected.

tough shit if you don’t like it or think it’s contradictory. If it’s taken you this long to work out that that’s life under late capitalism you’ve been a lucky motherfucker.

In the absence of knowing for certain why people voted the way they did (I have speculated as many others have done) we are left with only the ballot paper to go by aren’t we?
No I don’t like it, nor the Tory government and it is indeed tough shit.
That doesn’t rule out moaning about it, and taking what practical steps that may present themselves, including attempting to make the Brexit voters reflect on what damage they have caused.
Have you seen any recent pictures of wall slogans in Northern Ireland that say no sea border? The vote to leave is going to create conflict for many years to come.
I am certainly not sorting out my contribution to the festival of Brexit Britain intended to ‘bring the country together’. Leave voters have called on the conflict and I will engage with it as best I can.

 

[philosophical]

Being as your entire corpus of posts is built on the sandy claim that no one ever ever thought of the border before 23.6.16 it will be a pleasure

Go for it.
Score as many internet points as you like, the land border will remain a huge problem.

 

[belboid]

In the absence of knowing for certain why people voted the way they did (I have speculated as many others have done) we are left with only the ballot paper to go by aren’t we?

no