Supine
Newt Member
That bit wouldn't be changing though. It's the BT bit that is changing.
Not that it makes much difference to my life. I'm rather boring so nothing for the government to spy on me
The 2019 General Election
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
That bit wouldn't be changing though. It's the BT bit that is changing.
Not that it makes much difference to my life. I'm rather boring so nothing for the government to spy on me
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
It wouldn't it would simply own the infrastructure over which that traffic passed
It would have no idea what was in that traffic
Bit like the fact that the state provides the roads but has no idea what is in the back of each van or the boot of each car.
There is a sound argument that the state provides infrastructure such as power, networking etc whilst allowing private services to flourish on top.
I don't think Farmer John grasps the complexity or cost of what he is suggesting but the basic idea has merit
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Boring or not; doesn't matter...they snaffle the lot.That bit wouldn't be changing though. It's the BT bit that is changing.
Not that it makes much difference to my life. I'm rather boring so nothing for the government to spy on me
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Regarding cost, the only thing you really need to understand is that a nationalised network would be cheaper to build and to run, and it would necessarily be less complex than an arrangement involving a variety of private companies - see also railways.
Add to that the increasing social exclusion of people without access to broadband, which provides a compelling argument for total coverage based on social justice.
It will be interesting to see how the tories try to argue against this. I suspect that that is where you will see the real failure to grasp the complexity and cost issues.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
I don't think they will to any great degree, To win this election the Tories need to keep the conversation centred around the dreaded B word where they are strong and Labour is pitifully weak.
To have a chance Labour need to expand the conversation to include a discussion of the fundamental unfairness that underpins so much of modern Britain and where they can claim the high ground.
I suspect that this is an idea that is potentially popular, I can't imagine anyone I know getting outraged over whether BT investors are getting a return on their money.
To have a chance Labour need to expand the conversation to include a discussion of the fundamental unfairness that underpins so much of modern Britain and where they can claim the high ground.
I suspect that this is an idea that is potentially popular, I can't imagine anyone I know getting outraged over whether BT investors are getting a return on their money.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Ultimately the state is the only option for providing mass large scale infrastructure/networks which is why it was the state which built the fixed line network and the state that built the railway network and the state which built social housing.
Only have to look at the disparity in provision/service of these since privatisation, with the exception of housing based on population density, to see why private enterprise can't deliver. Look at financial services, probably the most militant of any sector in its opposition to public involvement, which was happy to about turn and welcome state intervention when it needed bailing out - something only the state could do (irrespective of whether it should have)
Only have to look at the disparity in provision/service of these since privatisation, with the exception of housing based on population density, to see why private enterprise can't deliver. Look at financial services, probably the most militant of any sector in its opposition to public involvement, which was happy to about turn and welcome state intervention when it needed bailing out - something only the state could do (irrespective of whether it should have)
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Even housing isn't an exception. Not enough housing is being built - and what is being built is of the wrong kind - to meet the real need. A situation of permanent shortage is far more profitable than one of decent homes for all.
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
My only fear is that, whilst water and sewerage undertakers have statutory powers to lay pipes, other utility companies rely on wayleaves and easements to lay assets where it's not possible to put them in the road. So the broadband might be a good way of lining the pockets of big landowners if it isn't carefully considered. Still a good policy, mind. Just needs fine tuning.
Good point ^
I guess most policies need fine tuning but this one has far reaching benefits. Would be nice to have schools, hospitals and such supplied alongside the public and businesses.
The UK is well behind on this!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
If you're not going to make it free, you certainly shouldn't be aiming to make it for profit. That would just be the equivalent of a massively regressive tax.
Also, if you don't make it free, you don't solve the problem of social exclusion and the marginalisation of those without it.
Was thinking that there would be a free package with some upgrades available
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Ah yeah agree, I just meant issues with housing provision aren't mainly due to population density like with fixed line/railways (low pop areas get shitter provision) - in fact almost reverse with social housing
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
The railways (and to a lesser exten the phone system) were built by private industry in relentless competition.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I see, yes. This proposal really isn't much different in that respect from the idea of a universal postal service in which everyone pays the same rate and gets the same level of service regardless of where they live. Internet is in many ways the modern equivalent of the post after all.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Can't agree. A patchwork network was built by private enterprise which wasn't fit for purpose and led to disparity of service and stupid shit like different track guages, not to mention a horrendous safety record. It was state that created the railway network as we know it today.
Fixed line network was entirely state, GPO then British Telecom. Pre GPO was just hobby shit.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
It’s not really that different to the state providing roads, people use different means to get shopping or socialise these days so meeting a similar need (and the early decent roads were tolled by private companies at one time). I guess opponents might argue that it’s not only providing the roads but also providing the petrol for the car.
See the Green Party have waded in with basic income by 2025
Green Party offers universal basic income by 2025
Green Party offers universal basic income by 2025
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And that kind of makes the point as to why this is something that should be a prime target for nationalisation. A new concept may be developed privately at first, but when it becomes transformatively successful, as the internet has and as the railways did, then it becomes something that is far too important to be left in private hands, because private hands maximise profit, they don't maximise benefit. Same with roads, where it took a nationalised system to build the modern motorways.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
Railway Mania - Wikipedia
10,000km of railways were built in just a few years of the boom, privately financed and barely regulated. The state didn't really control the railways until the Big Four grouping in 1923, by which time all the routes were long built.
Nationalisation then made perfect sense, but it's simply not true that "the state built the railway network"
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
If the tories have any sense, they've locked him inside a castle somewhere for the next month.
It is painfully great to see this.
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